Scrapheap Challenge - with Jess Jordan

[00:00:00] I hear myself talking, I hate myself. Please don't put in that when I said vagina. That's literally going to be the first word we hear. We started putting little random clips at the very beginning before even the title music

[00:00:11] and I think we all know what this one's gonna be. All I knew was I wanted to try and understand the way the world works, the natural world. We explore because of the idea of it. Science is the storytelling of our time.

[00:00:41] So me storytelling has always been the way to leave sorrow. Hello and welcome to Who Moved the Tortoise, a podcast about science and wildlife filmmaking. I'm Kate Dooley and I'm Alex Hemingway. And as usual we're joined by someone from the world of science or wildlife television

[00:01:02] to talk about the film or TV show that inspired them. This time we're talking to head of development Jess Jordan. Before securing landmark natural history and specialist factual commissions for Plimpsall Productions she studied chemistry and completed the masters in science media production at Imperial College London.

[00:01:20] She worked her way up the ladder on science and engineering TV shows before a meteoric rise with five promotions in six years at Plimpsall to become their senior VP of development. But it hasn't all been work work work. She's played pool in a particle accelerator,

[00:01:37] played table tennis in a neutron detector and zapped a phone box containing two scared children with Tesla coil lightning. We've been assured that no one was harmed. Jess' choice for the film or TV show that inspired her is the finale of Scrapheap Challenge series four.

[00:01:54] This week we're going to war on four wheels. But no, we're these tiddlers. Thank you Jess for joining us. First question is how difficult was it to choose something to talk about? Do you know what? It was really easy.

[00:02:29] Scrapheap Challenge is one of those shows that if you're in the science kind of media world you've heard of it, we've all watched it. Immediately I said I want to do Scrapheap Challenge. Kate was like yes Scrapheap Challenge. We had a chat about it the other day Alex

[00:02:43] and it's one of those shows that you kind of used to watch it on a Sunday night with your folks or you watched it while you were at university and it kind of just captured everyone's imagination

[00:02:52] and for me it was just one of the things I never missed. It was such a nostalgia thing actually for me. Well and for me as well. So I vividly remember watching this episode. This was university, this was second year of university Sunday evening 5.15.

[00:03:07] I had three shows that I watched when I was at university that you couldn't miss and they were Neighbours. There was Scrapheap Challenge and Time Team. That says quite a lot about you Alex. I think it does, I don't know what it says about me.

[00:03:20] But yes, incredibly nostalgic. Very much so and the 90s are back in. They're so in, they're so in, you're so on trend. I mean is the fact that your husband was on the show

[00:03:30] mean that the series not only inspired your career but also your choice of life partner? I mean does this mean quite a lot to you? Do you know what?

[00:03:38] I knew Rich, my husband had been on the show when I met him but it hasn't inspired my choice of series because we deliberately don't watch the episodes that he's in. You mean you still watched them today or did you go back and watch them at the time?

[00:03:53] We still watched them, we still watched them today. I've watched a couple recently but no haven't watched the ones he's been to for a while because he was very very young and embarrasses him.

[00:04:03] Like I would have loved to have been on that show like it's hardcore it's really tough. I know and when you go back and watch them you realise how smart the people on that show really were.

[00:04:14] They did have help, we know that the engineering experts were put into that format to help the more kind of novice engineers work up what they wanted to do but you know this episode they've got people doing really difficult maths on a whiteboard to understand

[00:04:33] how their machine is going to work and you look at that and you think these guys would never be cast in a TV show now they are way too smart.

[00:04:40] And seeing proper gear ratios and things like that and it was great that the show wasn't afraid of using the graphics and the experts to actually try and explain what's really going on

[00:04:52] and why they can do some things and can't do others. I was really impressed at the level of detail they had in the show. The mix plan to use the two arms to push the brake and accelerator with just one electric

[00:05:04] motor. The arms will link the pedals to a swivelling yoke when the motor twists the yoke one way it'll push the accelerator and release the brake twisting it the other way should do the opposite.

[00:05:15] It's ingenious but if the motor fails they'll lose control of both functions at once. I think what I love about it from a science communication point of view is that they've got that detail in without making it scary so the graphics are kind of cartoonish

[00:05:34] and simple but they perfectly explain the engineering principles that work. And when they talk about things they use the literation and puns and they just try and make it as fun as possible while still feeding that knowledge directly into your brain about what's

[00:05:49] going on on screen and it means that even for a lay person who's never watched an engineering show before in their life and hasn't taken an engineering degree or physics A level you can

[00:05:57] still understand exactly what's going on and you can work out if it's going to work or not. Yeah that was really great how they did that wasn't it they really up the drama and the tension

[00:06:06] and laid the wave for like they're going to do it this way but maybe it's not going to work. You know they either do that in the graphics or through the expert and so you're always

[00:06:14] thinking about it aren't you like then you're like oh okay well how are they going to make this work come on Nasha tell us you know whatever it is. Exactly. Can we rewind a little bit

[00:06:26] to the data broadcast so for this episode 12th episode of series four it was Sunday the 25th of November 2001 and I wonder Jess if you could paint a little picture of who you were how old

[00:06:39] you were what you were doing at the time that this would have gone out. I was 18 I had just started university so I think I've probably been there for a month and a half by then so

[00:06:51] homesickness had thoroughly set in and one of the things that I sort of climbed onto while I was in my first year at university was watching the tv shows that I used to watch before so for me

[00:07:01] you know in particular the fact that this is season four I'd already watched three seasons of this at home with my parents and I was sat in my tiny little room at horse just watching this show that

[00:07:12] kind of reminded me of being at home but also reminded me of all the things I loved about school because this show is kind of loosely based on the Great Egg Race and one of my favorite things

[00:07:21] at school was working with my physics teacher Becky Parker who in fact Dr Becky Parker was on an episode of Horizon when a few years later when I was working on it which was a really nice blast

[00:07:32] from the past but Miss Parker was really engaging and part of her why she was such a great physics teacher was that she would get the kids to do the Great Egg Race because

[00:07:44] she knew that by getting involved and by creating things with your own hands and by doing something you would learn physics through doing and that's exactly what Scrap Hoop Challenge does and at

[00:07:54] the time I hadn't really realized it but that's kind of what inspired me to do science communication so this is all very kind of linked up with who I didn't quite realize then I wanted to be

[00:08:03] but went on to realize and become a science communicator and so yeah very nostalgic for me very cold dark days of November sitting in my tiny little student accommodation in Paddington

[00:08:16] but actually it's got really good memories for me because it was also a time it's that time when you're 18 and you leave home you feel like you're coming out of yourself and so watching stuff like this

[00:08:25] back now really reminds me of that time it's lovely. Welcome to the National Exhibition Center in Birmingham for the rather special edition of The Great Egg Race. What is the Great Egg Race turned into this phenomenon around in schools around the country where essentially you had to

[00:09:08] protect an egg and race it and if your egg broke you did not win so it was all of this yeah creating cars sometimes we'd build bridges sometimes we'd build parachutes and things drop the eggs off

[00:09:20] high things for me it was a science club in my school with Great Egg Race obviously for the generation of people before me it was a television show but yeah it turned into this kind of

[00:09:29] thing that schools around the country did in physics lessons and outside of physics lessons at lunch times and after school clubs where kids would get involved and create things out of cardboard and lollipops and copydecks to protect eggs but it's all about physics and engineering principles.

[00:09:46] Hammer, spike, cannon, should we could knock up a flamethrower I think? Is it entirely practical for the brainstorming session? We've got nothing's dismissed in a brainstorming session We write everything down. You're in your first year at university when you're watching this episode

[00:09:59] you're studying chemistry are you watching it thinking hey you know I could make TV shows about science or is that not rattling around your brain at this point yet? That didn't come to me

[00:10:09] for several years. At the time I really thought I wanted to be a pyrotechnician. I just wanted it that doesn't surprise me one bit no I know I know I really wanted to blow stuff up and

[00:10:23] it's why I took a chemistry degree. Is that a posh word for arsonist? Yeah I've met a few pyrotechnicians since in my TV producing career and their job is less

[00:10:33] interesting than I thought it would be so that was quite good but no I was working in the summer I've worked in a lab as a research chemist doing research and development for a screen printing

[00:10:42] company kind of worked out already that I didn't necessarily want to be a proper chemist because it was a bit boring and for me when my brain goes everywhere all the time

[00:10:52] sitting in the lab and doing one thing for eight hours a day five days a week was definitely not going to be a good career path. I was in the back of my mind starting to worry that I'd

[00:11:02] done the wrong thing by taking a chemistry degree even that early on but had already decided that I was going to do it anyway. It wasn't until I think second year of university I joined the

[00:11:12] radio station at Imperial and I think we'd had my friend and I had had a radio show in first year but by second year I was like this is actually what I want to do. I love music, I love talking,

[00:11:25] I wanted to make a career out of media and I worked out by my second year but it wasn't until the fourth year of university that I found out they had a science media production

[00:11:36] master's at Imperial and then I was like that's it that's what I want to do there's nothing else for me I didn't know you could have a career in just talking to people about science

[00:11:44] that's brilliant. And a lot of people have done that degree I haven't. I haven't no. What do you think that gave you that has put you in good stead? It's such a great course I've hired anyone

[00:11:59] in an instant who'd done that course. You guys are great too. We are. No I'm surprised you haven't done it actually Kate I thought you had. A lot of people think that I don't know what that

[00:12:10] says about me and nor do I know what it says about me that I just got left out of the house but anyway carry on. I think it says Alex I've known Kate for quite a long time. The reason that that course

[00:12:19] works is because everybody who comes onto it comes on with no knowledge of media really but big knowledge of science and what they love and they do love science. I think most of them have

[00:12:29] kind of worked out that they want to talk about it or make films about it or make radio shows about it rather than actually do it and what it gives you is this grounding in all the stuff

[00:12:40] that they don't teach you in a science degree about narrative. You know how to tell a story properly, how to engage with an audience, how to make people understand what you're saying when you can't

[00:12:52] use science words to talk to them. You know it's that translational element between proper English that normal people speak and the crazy language that scientists have invented for themselves to shortcut what they want to talk about between themselves. We also had courses in like using

[00:13:11] cameras and editing, we made a film which I think most of us probably hadn't done before because back then you know this is like 2006 which really shows my age. Normal people didn't have

[00:13:22] access to like good cameras like we do now you know social media was only just starting, Facebook had just appeared, you might have a video camera on your phone if you were lucky

[00:13:30] and suddenly you know we had PD 150s to play with which now we laugh at because that's bad quality. Really old school but back then it was the camera that everyone was using and you know

[00:13:41] everyone was just starting to move into that idea of like maybe we're going to do HD television now and the cameras were just getting better and better exponentially so that was really great

[00:13:50] to be able to make a film with like proper tech that people were using out in the industry and have the experience to edit that film. We also did a course in semiotics, that's the course

[00:13:58] that really opened my mind to how media was actually a complicated subject because again it's one of those degrees that people laugh at but there's so much to take in and the idea that you can kind

[00:14:09] of put signs and symbols into what you're creating to help people get involved with the story more and see what's coming and signpost things like I had no idea that people were doing

[00:14:21] that in films and documentaries so by doing all that it just kind of rounds you out as a person and the absolute biggest thing was the work experience though so I did two weeks work experience with the Royal Institution Christmas Lectures through the course which was-

[00:14:36] Oh they're the best I worked on them yeah. They were so fun and because I looked quite young I ended up being kind of raped into play the plant in the audience. Oh no.

[00:14:48] No because at 21 years old I still looked about 15 and so I loved doing that and then I worked for Pioneer Productions for four weeks as my proper work experience on the course.

[00:14:59] The researcher had gone on holiday so I was doing a research job on an episode of Naked Science about volcanoes and you know a year before I hadn't even realised I was going to do this

[00:15:08] course and then here I am sat in the offices of Pioneer Productions in Hammersmith being a television researcher for four weeks it was just brilliant so it was a really great shortcut to the

[00:15:19] whole being a runner and doing work expense off your own back and trying to like blast outdoors in the television industry but it also really great grounding in kind of the creative part of what you need to be a TV producer.

[00:15:34] And so knowing what you know now when watching the show back do you see all those narrative tricks being used? Absolutely. I was discussing it with my husband earlier who is

[00:15:43] an engineer still now works in construction and I was saying how difficult it must have been for the producers of that show in the edit because what you don't have is well-spoken people who have a

[00:15:56] lot to talk about you've got engineers who want to put their heads into something greasy and smoky and use a spanner on it and try and make it work. Now Gary can get down to do what he really likes drawing pictures and doing sums.

[00:16:17] They're checking the window winder arm will move far enough to push the automatic gear lever between forward and reverse. Nosh doesn't do maths if the door's jammed he simply picks the log, meg style. But the way they create narratives through all of that is through format and I

[00:16:35] think that's the genius of Scrappy Challenge is that you're taking these people who normally you would never cast as contributors or they would have very very small bit parts in a show and you're putting them front and centre you're celebrating that kind of real book smarts without emotional

[00:16:52] smarts in many cases. There were obvious exceptions, married one of them but I think in general there's that kind of stereotype of an engineer is someone who's not very chatty. Anyway so the format

[00:17:02] means that you can follow along without really having to hear too much from them and all you need is those little snippets of people getting cross with things or you know saying we don't have a spring,

[00:17:13] we don't have a spring. We do have a spring we've got loads of swings but none of them are attached to it and it doesn't require the contributors to push your narrative along in

[00:17:23] the same way that a traditional horizon documentary might or a reality TV show. It's got the story laid out already you know that the beginning is nothing exists, the middle is some geeks go in a

[00:17:36] scrapyard find a load of stuff and build a machine and have a struggle and the end is going to be that you have this big finale that's a competition of some kind and someone's going to win. Really

[00:17:45] easy to understand what the story is going to be. The genius of it is in that kind of side storytelling of who these people are and what it is that they want to achieve and how they

[00:17:55] interact with each other and so there's all these kind of it's like a river with all these little eddies of narrative in between that some of them never resolve, some of them really

[00:18:03] resolve, some of them resolve very quickly, some of them resolve very like slowly through the program but it does mean you get that kind of colour of life through scrap heap which I you know you wouldn't

[00:18:13] think you would say about an engineering show. Time to see what Nasha thinks yeah but like you said this one's going to only push lightly and that one's going to push really hard. Yeah so it

[00:18:21] doesn't matter about the other side it doesn't matter if it pushes the accelerator hard. Too hard but it'll mean that you'll have it'll power off. You like that okay. It's going to be a wheel spinning. I mean it's nice because it's simplifying it down to one thing

[00:18:35] a very cunning yeah isn't the problem I mean if what if it goes you lose doubles. Yeah yeah there's no safety buckle. Right on paper you think no this is not going to work it's going

[00:18:45] to be really boring but the way they do it you're on the edge of your seat wanting to know if these machines are going to work because that finale is just so fantastic isn't it and it's

[00:18:55] so crazy like they've built this machine and it has a thing that kind of slams down on the other car to try and destroy it and but because they're radio controlling these cars that they veer off and

[00:19:07] they don't work and you're really on the edge of your seat trying to see if it's going to destroy each other and you're laughing when they miss and make mistakes and it's so fun.

[00:19:30] They're locked in a deadly embrace. Tim escapes but he's still having trouble controlling the brakes. With the scores so close both teams need to go for the 100 point targets but the Megs just can't resist the glory of a side-smashing 10. That was brutal.

[00:19:55] It takes Tim to tango as the catalyst chains caress the Megs rear end for 20 points. It's really great I mean I think the kind of one of the jokes of being a TV producer is that it

[00:20:19] ruins television for you though and so watching it back now you're like oh yeah they had people make sure those worked. It was never any real jeopardy because if it we know if that machine

[00:20:29] hadn't worked there wouldn't have been an end to the program because there's only two and there has to be a competition so you know I've spoken to like a few people who worked on Scrap Heap Challenge

[00:20:38] and we've both worked with colleagues who've worked on that show okay I don't know I'm sure Alex has as well and you know when you talk to people they're like yeah we have off-screen engineers who make all of the machines work afterwards and sometimes it takes them

[00:20:53] all night and then we have to film the final the next day so the teams would build the machines they would stop for the evening having completed their machine and then overnight people like

[00:21:03] Jem Stansfield would lovely Jem Stansfield from Bangles the Theory lovely Jem they would come in and they would tinker with all the machines and just make sure that they were safe that they were functional they weren't allowed to change the functionality of them and how they worked

[00:21:18] but they could make sure that they did work and that they were not going to kill anybody the next day and then the next day they would have the competition so it's that edifice of television you

[00:21:27] know the little kind of shine that we put on as producers that you make sure things work yeah but you end up being able to see through it once you've done the job but it's still fun I can still

[00:21:37] watch it and go along with it because the presenters play this great part of just pushing everything along and making everything fun and kind of slightly British over the top dramatic culty I see you stand like greyhounds in the slips straining upon the start the games afoot

[00:21:58] follow your spirit and upon this charge cry god for Gary Nasha and your fighting cars yeah and Robert Llewellad was genius casting for that show you know he'd been in Red Wharf

[00:22:20] so all the geeky people knew who he was but I just can't do it I can't look what's this no what is it please come on what is it it's a it's a it's a small off duty checkers

[00:22:33] of acting traffic warden and he's funny he's smart he loves engineering he's clearly really passionate about the show um and then you've got lovely Kathy Rogers who was the producer as

[00:22:46] well as the presenter so it was really kind of in with everything that was happening in a way that sometimes presenters aren't obviously she was replaced with Lisa Rogers later because

[00:22:55] if you could put an underwear model on it why wouldn't you um but Kathy but Kathy also went out to the states yes the show moved over to America and she went out to the states and ran the

[00:23:05] office in the states and did the show out there so I think maybe she couldn't do both as well I don't know that is why she left the UK version yeah yes that also happens yes but Lisa

[00:23:17] was really good as well actually you know she was she's an incredibly smart lady and she made that documentary about her vagina later on uh after she made Scrap Heap Challenge it was really watchable

[00:23:28] and really smart and really like educational and so I think that showed that showed a different side of her but Scrap Heap Challenge I think kind of helped bring her from page three lady to somebody

[00:23:41] that you could actually listen to and respect I don't think you can have those kind of chats with engineers without kind of knowing what they're talking about yeah like you've got to be actually quite smart to have those kind of conversations even if they're really fun and you're

[00:23:56] bantering with them and slightly taking the mic you actually kind of have to know what's going on yeah otherwise they won't they won't engage with you and so the casting of the presenters

[00:24:04] on that show is really really important it's worth a quick word about the origin story of Scrap Heap Challenge as well because it it's brilliant and it pertains to I think my favorite film which

[00:24:14] is Apollo 13 so that the story goes that Eve Kaye who was an assistant producer watched Apollo 13 and was inspired by the very famous scene where they have to construct a carbon dioxide

[00:24:27] scrubber to bring the stricken crew home and as origin stories go that's got to be one of the best ever for a TV show okay people listen up people upstairs handed us this one and we got to come through

[00:24:44] we got to find a way to make this fit into the hole for this use nothing but that let's get it working okay let's build a filter better get some coffee going too come along

[00:25:01] I had heard that story and I just think it's brilliant because Apollo 13 I mean what a lesson in science communication that was anyway if you're gonna hear it you may as well hear

[00:25:09] it from Tom Hanks but it's also kind of why I chose Scrap Heap Challenge on another level is that obviously my role is development I've just developed TV shows for well over a decade

[00:25:21] now I haven't been in production of TV shows for a very long time and so how these shows come about is fascinating to me and it shows you that they can come from anywhere they can come from a trip

[00:25:33] to cinema they can come from chat into your mates they can come from reading a book from going on Reddit from going out to a festival and seeing people cooking or singing or dancing all of

[00:25:47] those things are inspirational to TV developers so it's really nice to hear when it's such an obvious chain of events from going to see a film that was incredibly popular at the time coming out and going

[00:26:00] that's how we're going to make that engineering show work and going into work the next day and saying I've got it it's really great what's also really nice is for Eve Kaye who I haven't met

[00:26:09] and would love to at some point you know she's had an aspirational career off the back of it she joined RDF I believe when it was really quite small and helped grow the company massively by

[00:26:20] coming up with the idea for Scrap Heap Challenge but then she's gone on to executive produce things like Stanley Tucci's Searching for Italy which is an incredible show talked about award-winning and everybody who's watched that show really really loves it so she's had this kind of

[00:26:36] meteoric rise through television as well and so that's kind of an inspiration for young people in TV now I think if you just come up with a couple of good ideas which anyone can do even if you're

[00:26:47] just just an assistant producer those ideas can come from anywhere and if you are good at your job and come up with those ideas you can move up through the chain in TV too. How do you approach

[00:26:58] coming up with ideas and how do you shout loudly enough to be heard and taken seriously if you do feel like you're NAP and you know why should they listen to me? The first trick

[00:27:10] is to find a good company to work for where people will listen to you so the CEO of James Salis Grant Mansfield who used to work at RDF so it's all come from the same place and Grant is

[00:27:21] wonderful at listening to younger people and hearing ideas and understanding what's good and what's not and you know if he doesn't like an idea he will give you short shrift on it

[00:27:29] which is fine but if he likes an idea and it comes from you he's always been really keen that people are celebrated for that and rewarded by working up their ideas or financially sometimes

[00:27:40] and I think that when you're that I mean that's part one of doing it is finding a company that will listen to younger people but also ideas speak for themselves and if you are a junior person in

[00:27:52] television you know you're working at run the researcher level or AP level and you feel like you've got a really good idea go to a brainstorm tell someone about it in development as a

[00:28:03] development exec I can't tell you how much I love people coming and talking to me about their ideas because you can't work in a vacuum and I think you shouldn't have to shout loudly if you're

[00:28:13] working in a really good team people should listen so my advice for a young person trying to make it in TV and trying to get their ideas heard is go to brainstorms and talk about them and if you

[00:28:23] can't talk about them in a brainstorm go look for the head of development or a development producer or a development researcher and talk to them about it because they'll be in the brainstorms and they'll be able to push your idea forward there's an awful lot of talk at

[00:28:36] the moment of the state of the TV industry in the UK and worldwide and I think we've all certainly Kate and I have been suffering from it and most people that we know

[00:28:46] in some form or other have been suffering from it from a development perspective how hard is it to get ideas off the ground at the moment and what do you think the reason is really hard

[00:28:57] oh my god it's hard so I'm working in a much smaller company now a company called Chimp Productions our creative director is Richard Hammond he comes with some cachet and even with Richard

[00:29:09] on at the helm of things you know it's an easy foot in the door that isn't it you just mention a celebrity's name and people are like oh I'll listen to you because I've heard of that person

[00:29:18] it's difficult to get your ideas through to the commissioners in the first place because they they are getting so many because people are starting to get slightly desperate and it's even more difficult to get them commissioned because nobody has any money and I think that's

[00:29:32] that's kind of the big issue at the moment we know that people aren't working in television and there's been Bektu survey after Bektu survey about how many freelancers are out of work

[00:29:41] and it's a lot the reason is because there's fewer TV shows being made and the TV shows that are being made are being made on smaller budgets with smaller crews because the channels don't

[00:29:49] have the money so the reason I think that's happening is several fold there's obviously we've had a bit of a recession that's never good TV used to be recession proof in that it would be

[00:30:01] when there'd be a recession people would stop going out and they'd stay in and they'd watch television so advertisers knew that during the session was a good time to put on TV adverts

[00:30:08] so in general if there was a bit of a recession TV would stay roughly the same but now TV is not just the broadcast that comes onto your big screen it's tech companies you know Netflix is

[00:30:20] a tech company and when there's a recession tech companies lay people off and their financiers worry that they're not going to make any money and so they stop giving them these massive loans to spend on

[00:30:30] content so that's happened as well so the streamers have had a bit less money to spend on content the ad sellers the people who want to buy advertising space aren't buying it on television anymore because there's this great place called the internet where you can put your adverts

[00:30:43] and you can direct them at the exact people you want to see them via Facebook or YouTube or you can TikTok or Instagram and so I just think there's been this kind of massive contraction

[00:30:54] in television advertising which pays for all of our jobs and inflation and the recession has made everything has been more expensive and so even the BBC who don't run off advertising money

[00:31:05] have had less money to spend on things because it has to go further so it's it's been pretty bad but the good news is that everyone was saying survived to 25 and it's only like five months to go

[00:31:16] so it's got to get okay we need to cling on for dear life okay i'm holding i want to say thing i think things are looking up you know i have daily contact with commissioners other people in the

[00:31:28] TV industry other heads of development and it does feel like the gears are starting to turn again slowly i read something the other day that strongly implied that ad spend was now back

[00:31:37] to pre-recession levels and the article went as far to question as to why that hadn't translated to kind of a huge uptick in commissions already so maybe fingers crossed we're kind of on the cusp

[00:31:49] of something i think things are changing in the industry as well and i think people are coming back i know people are coming back to broadcast television there was an article uh i think it

[00:31:57] was yesterday saying that the normal broadcasters have seen an 11% uplift in audiences over the last year but these things always take time because if that has just come out now that has

[00:32:07] to wind up to the financial people at the top and those better ad sales have to go up there then they have to make a decision about how much money they're going to spend next year on

[00:32:14] commissioning then that has to come back down to the commissioners and then they have to find the shows that they want to make so it does you know it might seem really easy for a commissioner

[00:32:23] with a budget to take your show and just get going and make it now but actually there's all this is other stuff going on at the top of these channels that we never see as producers

[00:32:32] but takes a lot of time because it's the business side of things and there's also bigger problems that places like channel four and national geographic and disney where they've got a lot of

[00:32:40] other problems money things going on that mean that they haven't got budgets signed off or budgets have been slashed or they can't make decisions or whatever it is so there's a lot of other things

[00:32:49] going on as well that are muddying the waters for sadly for us yes and things that happen in america now massively affect the uk tv industry which you know i think even 10 years ago was

[00:33:00] much less the case than it is now welcome to the grand final it's test day and have we got a feast for you the location is a disused quarry but we've turned it into a super stadium

[00:33:12] for our steel clad street fighters it's a coliseum of car jousting do you think this would get commissioned today do you think it should be recommissioned i would love to think that this would be commissioned today because the number of conversations i have had with commissioners

[00:33:28] where they're like why can't we bring back scrap heap challenge that was such a great show we should have more shows like scrap heap challenge however the budget for this show was big

[00:33:37] you know they built a scrap heap on an army base that's mad i think a commissioner wouldn't take a chance on it now well channel four definitely wouldn't at the moment they have as you said

[00:33:48] got some issues in the commissioning pipeline at the moment with financial side of things so i think they just absolutely couldn't afford to take this show now maybe an u.s network would buy it

[00:33:58] someone like discovery if they didn't already have it well yeah because junkyard wars that was their version and yeah i mean i think that's potentially why this series came to an end because ultimately

[00:34:11] they slashed the budget and they had to get rid of the junkyard so it definitely changed the format and that was part of the joy of it i thought was that this is real junk it's junk to treasure

[00:34:21] isn't it yeah you make something out of nothing and that's so transformational it's the ultimate green message as well isn't it it's like everything that you throw away like that model plane that still works exactly perfectly that you just chucked on the scrap

[00:34:33] heap that's going to be picked up by some nice engineers and turned into a make-a-troll car to have a war with and what a war like i was so on the edge of my seat of who was gonna win

[00:34:44] it's so cool it was so fun wasn't it and then it's just like they they can't like you were like oh one guy's controlling everything he can't control everything it's too much for him the other

[00:34:54] guys are gonna win oh no they're not gonna win because they keep driving out of the circles and you were on yet the edge of your seat the whole time weren't you with the scores so close both

[00:35:04] teams need to go for the 100 point targets but the mechs just can't resist the glory of a side-smashing 10 that was brutal it's kind of like a giant robot wars wasn't it and it again that's nice to see how those

[00:35:26] inspirations come in even while you're making a show you're still developing it and say that you know i don't know but i can always guarantee that was inspired by someone watching robot wars episode formats like scrappeap challenge are so valuable to a company because after the i think

[00:35:43] it's the 2003 communications act very interesting in the uk as an independent production company if you sell your show to a uk channel you keep the ip and so if you can keep your ip you can

[00:35:58] exploit it elsewhere by distributing those shows across the world so kate you mentioned junkyard wars the american version of scrappeap challenge called junkyard wars because scrappeap is british english only but in america you would call that a junkyard you know that's pure profit

[00:36:14] for rdf once it's made because you haven't had to develop another show you've got your set you've got the format you've got ideas all you have to do is cast it put people into it

[00:36:25] obviously there is a cost associated with making the show but the profits are much much higher and then you can also exploit finished programs so all the uk programs of scrappeap challenge will

[00:36:35] have gone out in countries across the world those channels pay for those shows and that genuinely is pure profit like you haven't had to make another show you are just getting more money for making

[00:36:44] that show famously wife swap and secret millionaire formats like that are massive cash cows for companies like rdf because those are easy to make really cheap to make because you know you're just something wives between people's houses you don't you don't have to build a scrapyard

[00:37:00] to make that show and they can run and run and run and you just keep putting new cast into them and they can be made in any country they can be shown again in any other country you can make

[00:37:10] millions and millions of pounds on formats like that back in the day that's less the case now streamers will take all the ip all the rights everywhere worldwide us channels take all the

[00:37:20] ip so you end up being worked for hire but shows like scrappeap challenge that are formats just brilliant for tv companies and i do feel like there's still this feeling in our industry

[00:37:30] that you can't really talk about money and making profit and how good it is to have a successful business but that's bonkers because if you're making money as a production company it means you

[00:37:41] can invest in development which means you can invest in creativity which means you can invest in people and if you're doing that you can come up with other great shows that aren't necessarily

[00:37:52] big cash cows for your company but they are the things that will win awards or the things that will make an impact on you know the audiences who are watching your shows so being able to make money

[00:38:04] and exploit your ip is really really important in television because it gives us options and it gives us the the wherewithal and the leeway to make shows that we really really love to make

[00:38:13] and we're brilliant at it in the uk it's one of our great exports isn't it i mean we are we are world leaders in film and television and we still are so hard not to mention the government

[00:38:25] currently we are world leaders in making film and television and long may it continue and be supported by our politicians in westminster that would be lovely whoever wins the general election please continue to support film and tv production in the uk and there is talk that

[00:38:41] film and tv production is going to be supported there was some news this week that they think there's going to be like another nine and a half billion pounds for film and tv production

[00:38:49] working in in the part of the industry that we do how much that money we'll see is a really good question it's definitely not going to be nine and a half billion pounds a lot of that will be on

[00:38:58] you know the next franchise like harry potter you know massive amounts of filmmaking all these brilliant new studios that you see as you drive out on the m4 corridor when you're coming out

[00:39:07] of london but i think things are going to change a lot over the next few years financially in fractual tv making but also creatively i think we're going to have to find new ways to

[00:39:18] engage our audiences to tell the stories that we want to tell to hide the science vegetables in really really great narratives um but i think that money will come back and we'll we'll see it

[00:39:28] again but for formats will be part of that because if there's one thing i know about television audiences they love to watch the same thing but slightly different over and over again because it's very very comforting like scrappeap challenges like an incredibly comfortable watch still and then

[00:39:45] now that's got these layers of nostalgia in with it too having watched it years ago absolute nostalgia a time when nobody had a mobile phone and you couldn't just look everything up on the internet

[00:39:56] it is like a lovely warm hug isn't it from a robot from robert lawellen as chryton wouldn't that be great bringing back bringing back he's trying to make a kind of special of scrappeap

[00:40:12] challenge at the moment called zap peep challenge about making an electric car yeah yeah yeah he's um yeah he's so into electric cars at the moment as podcast is a youtube show as well i think

[00:40:21] yes he's got a whole production company making those those videos for him great we'll have to get him on talk about it he's a dream guest territory for me as an absolute red dwarf obsessive okay so we'll do a whole special on our favorite scenes from red dwarf

[00:40:38] mind someone with the red light bulb step up the red alert sir are you absolutely sure it does mean changing the bulb we've got in touch with you and and forced you to kind of reminisce

[00:40:51] and look back um the thing that inspired you and having now had a chance to sort of go back and rewatch it and to have this conversation about it how do you feel about scrappeap

[00:41:02] challenge now and what does it mean to you oh that's such a deep question alex i still love it and i wish it was still on tv because i think there's a there's a lack of shows like scrappeap

[00:41:14] and horizon and bang goes the theory we have to mention it because we'll work on it that is that joy of science and engineering that that love that the contributors have for what they're doing but also that the producers really obviously have for the subject matter

[00:41:32] i can't think of too many shows that are on at the moment that show that and i think it's really sad because these shows were the shows that inspired us that's why we're here talking about it

[00:41:42] it's inspired us they inspired a whole generation of people people in their 20s who talk about bang goes the theory is something that they used to watch with their parents with them younger

[00:41:51] and they loved it and they you know they became scientists because of it and it's the same for people at our age and scrappeap challenge in tomorrow's world these these kind of shows are so important for inspiring the next generation of scientists engineers even science filmmakers

[00:42:12] that to not have them on our screens is just really really sad there aren't many women in it though are there yeah yeah yeah i mean you would um if you made it today you would try and

[00:42:23] aim for more diversity in your teams wouldn't you but actually that's one of the only things i would do differently if i made it today absolutely there's no reason to make it any differently today you know engineering the simple engineering technology that exists in the scrappy world

[00:42:39] has not changed that much there might be kind of better better remote control circuits or maybe you would use a computer or a mobile phone in something oh yeah you can have some fun with

[00:42:48] kind of you know mobile phones controlling things and into ai and things like that you could do things differently make different kinds of machines do different things couldn't you and you know instead of going big you could go small yeah as well you know there's lots of

[00:43:02] different things you you could still do to make the show feel different yeah maybe we should buy the rights kate and develop a new version well let's just go to rdf and go can we work for

[00:43:11] you and we'll make the new version and it will be amazing oh that would be dreamy wouldn't great pop our contact details at the end of it okay rdf will be in touch yeah right

[00:43:24] thank you for a very nostalgic trip down memory lane it was so fun to watch really great show i loved it thank you so much for having me follow who moved the tortoise on x at tortoise pod or email us at whomovethetortus at gmail.com