My Year With the Tribe - with Felix Black

[00:00:00] I am chomping at the bit to go one, one, one, two

[00:00:03] You can do it if you want

[00:00:04] I can see the waveform so I know it's probably good

[00:00:06] You're not working with Swade now Felix, calm down

[00:00:08] Ha ha ha ha

[00:00:09] Endless withering production

[00:00:14] Running up

[00:00:20] All I knew was I wanted to try and understand the way the world works, the natural world

[00:00:28] We explore because we are human

[00:00:32] Science is the storytelling of our time

[00:00:37] So me storytelling has always been the way to leave someone

[00:00:42] Cut

[00:00:46] Hello and welcome to Who Moved the Tortoise, a podcast about science and wildlife filmmaking

[00:00:52] I'm Kate Dooley

[00:00:53] And I'm Alex Hemingway

[00:00:55] And as usual we're joined by someone from the world of science or wildlife television

[00:00:59] to talk about the film or TV show that inspired them

[00:01:03] This time we're talking to editor Felix Black

[00:01:06] Felix went to the same school in South London that David Bowie attended

[00:01:10] and he's been chasing Ziggy Stardust ever since

[00:01:13] He studied critical fine art practice at Central St Martin's

[00:01:17] where he made installation art that tried to stop time itself

[00:01:21] and was shortlisted for the young contemporaries

[00:01:23] After graduating he returned to the post-production houses

[00:01:27] where he snuck in to get his video editing done during art school

[00:01:30] making tea and cleaning out dead mice

[00:01:33] In the meantime he tried to capture some of that stardust with his other passion, music

[00:01:38] He's had a song played on BBC Radio, had a naked video shot by an award-winning director

[00:01:44] and during lockdown he even sang backing vocals for rock band Swade

[00:01:48] on their album Auto Fiction

[00:01:58] Luckily for us his big break came first in editing

[00:02:02] at Keo Films with anthropological and natural history documentaries

[00:02:06] He went on to edit a huge number of science shows

[00:02:09] including David Attenborough's Micro-Monster's 3D

[00:02:12] and Horizon's Jimmy Carr and the Science of Laughter

[00:02:15] Today he's chased the stardust across the globe by moving to Berlin

[00:02:19] where he's worked on Blue Chip Extravaganza's

[00:02:22] National Geographic's Welcome to Earth with Will Smith

[00:02:26] and Disney's The Devil's Climb

[00:02:28] Felix's choice for the film or TV show that inspired him is the BBC 2 series

[00:02:32] My Year with the Tribe

[00:02:39] In the rainforests of West Papua

[00:02:42] there lives a tribe that is one of the most ancient and isolated cultures on Earth

[00:02:49] The Korowai were not visited by outsiders until around 40 years ago

[00:02:53] when anthropologists and missionaries returned with stories of cannibalism

[00:02:58] stone age tools and extraordinary houses built in the trees

[00:03:06] Over the years many documentaries have been made about them

[00:03:10] offering a snapshot of their lives

[00:03:13] but in this series I want to try something different

[00:03:19] I want to find a family who will let me film with them over the course of a whole year

[00:03:26] so that I can better understand the pressures that Korowai culture is now under

[00:03:32] caught between the modern world and the pull of their traditional way of life

[00:03:38] Working with big Hollywood stars now

[00:03:40] has a bit of that Bowie stardust finally rubbed off on you from school

[00:03:44] My secondary school days was a bit of a dark, depressive time

[00:03:52] and actually the light at the end of the tunnel was swayed

[00:03:55] that's when I got into swayed

[00:03:57] and that was more of a friend to me than a lot of the school was

[00:04:00] but it was comforting to know that I knew the bus stop where David Bowie got punched

[00:04:06] and it altered the pupils in one of his eyes

[00:04:10] and gave him the alien look which set him onto the heavens shall we say

[00:04:15] Give us a bit of an idea of the trajectory that took you from there to editing

[00:04:20] The biggest thing was something that was almost unattainable at the time

[00:04:25] at St Martin's they had one avid in the art college

[00:04:28] and it was constantly booked out you couldn't get to it

[00:04:31] and that was where I came to a barrier where I couldn't actually edit

[00:04:35] because at the time having an avid and everything was way up the range

[00:04:39] and that's where I'll worm my way into a couple of post houses

[00:04:42] with some friends and got to use avids in downtime

[00:04:45] or at the weekend snuck in and would start editing stuff in these post houses

[00:04:50] when people weren't looking

[00:04:52] and then use those for my art installations at St Martin's

[00:04:56] and that was the route into editing

[00:04:59] Why did you move across to video?

[00:05:01] What did that give you that the other forms of art didn't?

[00:05:05] I loved a film by Chris Marker called Le Jeté

[00:05:08] and that was made almost entirely, 99% out of photographs

[00:05:14] with audio underneath and that was the film that inspired 12 Monkeys

[00:05:19] and this particular film has one small part of motion in the middle of it

[00:05:24] that lasts for only a short number of frames

[00:05:28] and that movement is so powerful and enormous within that film

[00:05:33] that it literally shakes the world

[00:05:36] What did you do in the film?

[00:05:54] And what I started to do was in an attempt to stop time within my art practice

[00:06:01] I had pictures of my grandma and grandad which I projected into a darkened room

[00:06:08] and I asked my parents to come up to the studio

[00:06:12] and stood them, posed them in the dance position that my grandparents were in when they were at a ball

[00:06:17] and I asked my parents to close their eyes

[00:06:19] and I positioned the opened eyes of my grandparents onto their eyes

[00:06:23] and my dad was standing there and he had a projection of his dead dad on his flesh

[00:06:29] My granddad's eyes for the strangest, briefest moment became alive

[00:06:35] on my dad within this darkened room in St Martin's

[00:06:39] and that had a huge profound effect on me where it felt like I had almost come into contact

[00:06:48] with some form of the unknown or the past or the dead alive again

[00:06:52] and that really, really caught my imagination

[00:06:57] Wow!

[00:06:58] That's remarkable

[00:06:59] When you're hanging around in these post-production houses doing your student-y work

[00:07:04] are you starting to get a flavour for editing? Are you starting to enjoy it?

[00:07:07] Well, I wanted to be a rock star so I'd listen to music all the time

[00:07:12] I always had my headphones on

[00:07:13] I didn't realise that I was readjusting what I was seeing for instance on the train or the tube

[00:07:18] or the people I was mixing around with to a soundtrack

[00:07:21] and in a way it was editing what I thought or how I felt

[00:07:25] and I only really thought of this looking back

[00:07:29] I could feel the same experience when I was actually editing on computers

[00:07:33] and actually putting stuff together

[00:07:35] It was a mode of making that felt homely or intrinsic

[00:07:40] and I could reach something that I felt was significant

[00:07:43] and that to me was a very powerful tool

[00:07:47] It is amazing up here

[00:07:49] I mean it's just stunning

[00:07:52] but it's not real

[00:07:54] I mean it is real and as much as it's here

[00:07:57] but this place has been built by my people

[00:08:02] for the purposes of telling stories about theirs

[00:08:07] I wonder if you could give us an idea of what your role actually is as an editor

[00:08:15] Your role can be determined by a huge amount of factors

[00:08:19] some of which are, well they really start by being outside factors

[00:08:23] i.e. what you are requested or asked to do

[00:08:27] Some projects need more out of the editor than others

[00:08:32] Some projects are missing things

[00:08:34] not through no one's fault

[00:08:36] or problems have arisen where you need to bring something to the project

[00:08:41] which isn't there intrinsically

[00:08:44] and an editor can do that if they are asked

[00:08:47] or if they're given the licence to

[00:08:49] I would say really you have to bring yourself to the project

[00:08:54] and that's what I've done on every film that I've been blessed enough to work on

[00:09:00] and sometimes it's not always required or liked

[00:09:05] if you can bring your personality

[00:09:08] or what you think is important to you into a project

[00:09:12] and what I will try to do is find the spirit that lives within the rushes

[00:09:17] within the project

[00:09:19] and that's not always the same thing that potentially was meant to be shot

[00:09:24] or that the channel or network will want

[00:09:27] or were after initially

[00:09:29] but what you can do is broaden something to have an extra gear

[00:09:34] and if you can add an extra element of importance to scenes or to stories

[00:09:39] that can be something that's vital for the project

[00:09:42] and the people that have asked you to work on it with them

[00:09:45] What I, as a director what I love about working with editors

[00:09:50] and working with you in particular as we have done over the years

[00:09:54] is that idea of handing your stuff over

[00:09:57] and asking someone to take a look at it with no prejudice

[00:10:01] with a fresh pair of eyes

[00:10:03] with no consideration of the particular challenges of how stuff was shot

[00:10:07] or anything like that

[00:10:09] and as you say I think you've already touched on it

[00:10:11] it's the idea that an editor can find stuff

[00:10:15] find the magic within the rushes that maybe no one else even knew was there

[00:10:18] I think they're almost like another director

[00:10:20] it's a different type of directing

[00:10:23] the editor's role is an immense privilege

[00:10:27] and in some sense you are almost like a divine agent

[00:10:32] that's playing with space and time

[00:10:35] and the story that you can help to construct

[00:10:37] from what is already a change of reality

[00:10:40] I've worked with some amazing people over the years

[00:10:45] and when you turn on, I've been told

[00:10:48] when you turn on the camera

[00:10:50] it becomes something else

[00:10:53] and the story that you would like to present to the world

[00:10:56] sometimes to huge audiences, sometimes to very small audiences

[00:10:59] but the importance of it always remains

[00:11:02] that you are a custodian of a particular story

[00:11:06] of a record of time

[00:11:09] and that is something that is really quite a large burden

[00:11:13] but also a pleasure to craft with some extraordinary people

[00:11:20] I don't think I've ever had a mirror put in front of my face

[00:11:24] quite so brutally as I have here in the last few days

[00:11:28] where I've actually been made to look at myself

[00:11:31] especially as a television presenter

[00:11:33] and be like, you know what?

[00:11:35] Look around you mate, you made this

[00:11:37] The series that you've chosen to talk about today

[00:11:40] is one of the most profound examples of that phenomenon

[00:11:45] that I've ever seen

[00:11:47] the very presence of a camera and a camera crew

[00:11:50] changes everything about the series you're watching

[00:11:54] the films you're watching

[00:11:55] and about the reality that is taking place

[00:12:02] Part of me feels like this experience is already irreparably broken

[00:12:06] and I may as well be in a 40 metre height

[00:12:11] tree house built for television

[00:12:12] literally, I may as well be

[00:12:15] in many respects a 40 metre tree house

[00:12:18] with just me on my own with a camera for the night

[00:12:21] is going to be more meaningful than being here

[00:12:24] with people that are genuinely living in the forest

[00:12:27] but with 40 odd people on their doorstep

[00:12:30] you know, the situation we have completely changed this place

[00:12:35] this is, we are the amusement park

[00:12:37] we've brought it with us

[00:12:38] This series is actually within the context of

[00:12:41] what we've done so far on the podcast is quite recent

[00:12:43] and it was the first episode of three

[00:12:46] was first broadcast on Sunday the 15th of April 2018

[00:12:50] at 9 o'clock on BBC Two

[00:12:52] and normally what we do now is ask where you were

[00:12:55] when you were watching it

[00:12:56] but that isn't relevant in this case

[00:12:58] because you were actually involved in making it

[00:13:00] so your story and your connection to this project

[00:13:03] goes back quite a bit further

[00:13:05] so do you want to tell us a little bit about how you got involved

[00:13:08] and at what stage of the process

[00:13:10] that my year with the tribe was a large undertaking

[00:13:15] but compared to many other documentaries

[00:13:19] on a relatively small budget

[00:13:22] but the story and the mechanism to make the series

[00:13:28] was well underway when I joined

[00:13:31] and I was called by the executive on the project

[00:13:35] and told that whilst filming

[00:13:37] they had discovered something about the location

[00:13:40] and the story of the tribe that they were hoping to journey with

[00:13:44] which had changed the whole direction of the series

[00:13:48] and they had already started the editing

[00:13:50] it was a large project with a lot of rushes

[00:13:53] and over a long period of time

[00:13:55] So you get a phone call in which the exec says that to you

[00:13:58] what are you thinking?

[00:13:59] Are you thinking, hey great, that sounds like a challenge

[00:14:02] or not so sure about that

[00:14:04] I was working on another documentary that was being changed

[00:14:10] by someone very high up

[00:14:12] so it was a mechanism that does happen in series

[00:14:17] and in projects

[00:14:18] but the person who called me I had deep admiration for

[00:14:21] so I was extremely happy to get his call

[00:14:24] and the intrigue as to what was happening was immense

[00:14:29] and I literally just couldn't wait to start

[00:14:31] There were a lot of rushes

[00:14:33] What does that actually mean?

[00:14:35] What type of show is this and why would it generate lots of material?

[00:14:40] The rushes will mean to what's been shot

[00:14:42] There's one main cameraman director who shot a lot of the series

[00:14:47] and there are other portions where the presenter shot alone

[00:14:52] and he stayed in the jungle by himself almost two weeks

[00:14:55] Also the entire crew went back to the same place in Papua

[00:15:01] four times in one year

[00:15:03] and that was a new way of making this sort of documentary

[00:15:07] so therefore the amount of rushes generated was relatively large

[00:15:12] but it also needed to be because the story expanded and changed on the fly

[00:15:18] This was something that was done outside of the normal project rules if you like

[00:15:23] It was unhinged in terms of letting things flow in front of the camera

[00:15:28] You would normally be kept behind the camera and the audience wouldn't ever be aware of

[00:15:33] so that was where we had a fantastic body of rushes to work with

[00:15:39] And it now appears that some of the more entrepreneurial Korowai

[00:15:43] have cleverly learnt to deliver exactly what their foreign guests expect to see

[00:15:49] In fact, in the area around Mubul

[00:15:52] it is becoming clear that they have built an entire economy

[00:15:55] around selling brand Korowai to rich tourists and television crews

[00:16:08] So by the time you actually physically start yourself the editing process

[00:16:13] has all the filming been finished by this point?

[00:16:15] Have they made all four visits to Papua?

[00:16:17] I think everything had been shot

[00:16:20] because I had edited it in the end over 14 months

[00:16:23] It's worth pointing out that a 14 month edit is largely unheard of

[00:16:28] Not many of anything, with the exception of Hollywood films

[00:16:32] It was six months solid for me and there were two other fabulous editors on it

[00:16:36] Simon and Charlie because of the nature of what had been found out

[00:16:40] and how the documentary series had exploded to effect

[00:16:44] almost every single other production that had ever gone there

[00:16:47] The editing had to continue for even longer

[00:16:50] and it had to go through a lot of eyes, shall we say

[00:16:54] before it was finally released

[00:16:58] It was actually at one point at risk of potentially not being made

[00:17:05] This is a controversial series for a number of reasons

[00:17:09] but we don't want to poke too many bears

[00:17:12] and we're not here to deconstruct all the controversy or anything like that

[00:17:15] But I just wondered if you could give us a general sense of what the mood was like

[00:17:19] on the production when you joined?

[00:17:21] Oh gosh, yes, there's a variety of answers to that one

[00:17:26] First and foremost with the director Gavin Searle who shot the series

[00:17:32] He's an immense individual

[00:17:34] and the skill and craft that he has to first of all get the shots

[00:17:39] in the most awful and horrendous of conditions is second to none

[00:17:44] but secondly the intensity to really tell the story

[00:17:48] and to absolutely deliver the film that he feels he's experienced

[00:17:53] and feels that the world should get is really unsurpassed

[00:17:58] On my first trip I discovered that many more Korrawaite than I thought have left the forest

[00:18:03] and are now living in government built villages

[00:18:07] But in a remote tree house I met Hul and Halla

[00:18:12] who's known locally as Whitebeard

[00:18:14] and their adopted son August

[00:18:24] August told me that he had chosen to remain in the forest to look after his uncles

[00:18:28] along with his wife Amel and two kids Doddy and Sun

[00:18:34] There's three generations of Korrawaite people living in that house

[00:18:37] That is a lot of different pairs of eyes to see life in this forest through

[00:18:42] and they're the first people that I've met that are genuinely living in the forest

[00:18:46] They are living it, you know, they are genuinely living in this way

[00:18:50] Now, three months later, I'm returning for my second trip

[00:18:54] but things are destined to get much more complicated than I imagined

[00:18:59] It's been hard and beautiful to re-watch the series and revisit it as well

[00:19:04] because it was a very strong period of time where I'd just become a dad

[00:19:10] when I was making this series

[00:19:12] and Halp and Halup have stayed with me in my mind and spirit, shall we say

[00:19:19] because I found them so deeply effective

[00:19:24] their story and potentially being the last hunter-gatherers of their kind

[00:19:31] potentially left, they really deeply affected me

[00:19:34] and I lived and breathed every frame of those rushes and the series

[00:19:40] and every cut I can remember scenes and whole stories

[00:19:44] and days worth of material that simply just couldn't fit into the series

[00:19:49] Yeah, it was quite an emotional re-watch

[00:19:53] and in some sense it wasn't a job, it wasn't editing

[00:19:58] It was one of the most interesting and amazing periods of my life

[00:20:03] to be able to see those rushes and then to work with those rushes

[00:20:08] was really, really fantastic

[00:20:11] I could imagine if I was a director or a camera operator

[00:20:15] or a producer on a shoot like that

[00:20:18] and being embedded far away from home in this remarkable place

[00:20:22] with these remarkable people that you would form this sort of bond

[00:20:26] and relationship with them

[00:20:28] but it sounds like the same thing is happening to you as well

[00:20:31] You're shut away in your edit suite, which is quite an intimate place to be

[00:20:36] You do, the edit suite is thankfully

[00:20:41] it can be an isolated place and I do like that

[00:20:46] I like working alone and living and breathing what you are going through

[00:20:53] in terms of the rushes and the film that you're working in

[00:20:56] and just touching back upon what was the mood of the production

[00:21:00] In some senses as an editor you also don't care what the mood is

[00:21:04] because you care about what's there in front of you

[00:21:07] and you go through finding what's in those rushes

[00:21:11] and experience them in a way on repeat

[00:21:15] and I imagine it may be some quirk of the makeup of being an editor

[00:21:21] where I can happily re-watch again and again and again and again

[00:21:25] and you have the power almost of a strange spirit

[00:21:29] revisiting these moments in time

[00:21:32] and finding a message in them

[00:21:36] that sometimes you are allowed to tell

[00:21:39] and this time we were in this series

[00:21:50] This is the price we're all paying for trying to do things differently

[00:21:54] On other trips, producers like Shinta would take care of all of these sorts of negotiations off camera

[00:22:00] and the audience would be none the wiser

[00:22:03] but this time I wanted to film everything that happens openly and honestly

[00:22:07] but because things are going wrong

[00:22:09] the result is very uncomfortable for us all

[00:22:13] Of course I'm disappointed

[00:22:21] I really didn't think it would end that way

[00:22:24] that I thought that we would at least be able to find some common ground

[00:22:29] but actually in reality it's worse than I thought

[00:22:32] He's asked for even more money than I thought overnight

[00:22:36] and his reaction was one of anger and annoyance

[00:22:40] He obviously thinks that what I've done is really wrong

[00:22:44] and I don't agree with him

[00:22:46] So there we go

[00:22:48] It's a real, real sad end

[00:22:55] What was your brief when you started?

[00:22:57] What were you faced with and how big a challenge was it as an editor?

[00:23:01] It was about the truth

[00:23:04] Initially the outlook for the series was to find the last Korowai

[00:23:09] if they still exist living as hunter-gatherers in the dense jungle

[00:23:14] but the encroachment of modern life is far reaching

[00:23:20] The tentacles are going deep into West Papua for good and for bad

[00:23:27] and that was very evident in the rushes

[00:23:30] but what we came back with was a story that exploded

[00:23:36] the lie of the truth

[00:23:38] because for the last 30, 40 years

[00:23:43] the understanding of how the Korowai lived was not actually the truth

[00:23:50] and once we had that court in the can so to speak

[00:23:56] the story was to make the story

[00:24:00] to actually hand over what we had found

[00:24:03] and what Will and Gavin and the team there had captured on the ground

[00:24:10] what was a very, very challenging experience

[00:24:13] in particular for Wilmillard himself

[00:24:16] because as the presenter he also carried criticism for the series

[00:24:21] and also unfair, should we say, political gesturing

[00:24:26] to the nature of himself and how television operates

[00:24:29] because he has a deep understanding of the place

[00:24:34] and has travelled there for over a decade before making this series

[00:24:39] It's very not it. It feels like there's more than one documentary happening at the same time

[00:24:44] and depending on how you sit and watch it

[00:24:46] there are different bits of it coming out at you

[00:24:49] On the one hand, it's a documentary about anthropology

[00:24:52] Of course it is. I mean that's obviously what it's set out to be

[00:24:55] but on the other hand it is this documentary about truth

[00:24:58] and about it's a documentary about making documentaries as much as anything

[00:25:03] So there's all this stuff going

[00:25:04] And it's an expose

[00:25:05] And it is an expose as well

[00:25:06] An expose on documentary, on previous documentary makers

[00:25:09] For example, the series Human Planet

[00:25:12] who then took out, because they had previously visited the tribe

[00:25:16] and filmed these houses built up on stilts really high

[00:25:20] that actually the tribe did live in

[00:25:23] but only kind of 10 meters above the ground

[00:25:26] whereas they had specifically built something for the BBC

[00:25:29] that was 30 meters off the ground

[00:25:30] that wasn't safe, that they just built for TV

[00:25:33] and that is not okay

[00:25:35] So then the BBC pulled that scene out of the series

[00:25:39] So it's an expose as well

[00:25:41] and I'm sure that's part of the reason why you had to have this kind of

[00:25:44] long editing process and lots of legal

[00:25:47] I'm sure there was lots of legal eagles on this

[00:25:49] and talking about what we can show, what we can't show

[00:25:51] How are we going to do it?

[00:25:52] How is this going to impact other TV shows that we've made

[00:25:56] It's very complex

[00:25:58] It wasn't either, but Keo is the team to make that

[00:26:02] The amount of rushes meant that there were three editors

[00:26:05] So there was Simon and Charlie, both fantastic editors

[00:26:08] who were helping to craft the story along with Gavin

[00:26:11] and also the exact Will Anderson

[00:26:13] and they are extremely well versed

[00:26:16] with their background, with other cultures, tribal life

[00:26:19] and also the normity and the pitfalls of making documentaries

[00:26:23] So I don't think this purely was a testament

[00:26:28] to the skills and talents that Keo pulled together in one place

[00:26:32] And I think more than anything

[00:26:34] that this series will be remembered as an important historical document

[00:26:41] for the last remaining hunter-gatherers on the planet

[00:26:45] and also how things were made

[00:26:48] and the portrayal of a truth in television

[00:26:53] Unfortunately, it did not have the normal throughput

[00:26:59] onto its broadcast that you would expect from a documentary like this

[00:27:03] It was trumpeted only with one statement

[00:27:06] and did not have the normal mechanism of being released

[00:27:11] and advertised to the world

[00:27:13] It was buried, but there was still an awful lot of press after it went out

[00:27:19] Yes

[00:27:20] And still a lot of people viewed it

[00:27:22] 1.6 million, I think, viewed it on the night

[00:27:24] Yeah, and what's slightly mad about the press reaction to it

[00:27:30] is that it got the whole gamut of reviews

[00:27:35] all the way from this is an abomination, absolute disgrace

[00:27:40] to this is one of the greatest documentary series that's ever been made

[00:27:44] And I think you must be doing something very right

[00:27:48] if you're able to generate that spread of opinion

[00:27:51] There must have been a debate about whether to put this on television at all

[00:27:55] and I think you've alluded to the fact that those conversations were had

[00:27:58] The rough cuts had to then go through a process of being observed by a large number of eyes

[00:28:05] What had been recorded and what was subsequently found out

[00:28:08] also had ramifications for previous teams who had worked there

[00:28:15] and for a huge number of global channels around the world

[00:28:19] And therefore the revelations cast a light on the authenticity

[00:28:25] of a large number of documentaries and productions

[00:28:30] And that obviously was a very big event which needed to be circumnavigated

[00:28:36] in such a way that Keo could have the documentary broadcast on the BBC

[00:28:41] And as an editor though, you're in your room watching the rushes trying to go

[00:28:46] I'm just trying to tell the best story in the best way I can

[00:28:52] Do you feel like what went out is true to what you wanted to go out?

[00:28:58] The story that we told had a deep effect on the people involved

[00:29:04] All of the editors, the director and Will Milard himself personally

[00:29:12] And it had a large effect on his career in so much as it potentially blew that whole exploration

[00:29:22] and his type of presenter out of the water to a certain extent

[00:29:27] And the ramifications for it I think prove its worth as a piece of work

[00:29:35] I reckon I'm going to get a much better understanding of what it's like to be a traditional Kora Wai

[00:29:41] I'm just here with a small camera and that's it

[00:29:44] Everybody must go

[00:29:46] That's it

[00:29:50] And okay, I might not find some great truth

[00:29:53] I think it's suddenly going to become some Kora Wai warrior

[00:29:56] That's not going to happen

[00:29:58] But I reckon I'll get a much better understanding if it is just me and them

[00:30:02] Oh no

[00:30:04] Yeah, I see you in a week

[00:30:06] Are we filming?

[00:30:08] It's really happening isn't it?

[00:30:10] Yeah

[00:30:11] I hope this is a good idea Gavin

[00:30:14] But you got to see potentially the last hunter-gatherers in Halp and Halep

[00:30:20] That was an experience and especially to have been there that can never leave

[00:30:27] And that really felt like an important document for future generations too

[00:30:33] And the connection that I had in the suite with these rushes

[00:30:39] These help and Halep were alive

[00:30:43] And just as we were finishing the series we got news that Halep had died in the jungle and passed away

[00:30:50] And it felt like a long-lost granddad had died

[00:30:56] It was so effective in a way that I almost had to reassess my relationship with cutting and editing

[00:31:09] Something could hit you like that so hard from a way of life that was the normal way of life

[00:31:18] For 10,000 years that hunter-gatherers were from

[00:31:22] And we're living in a particular moment in history that's extremely new, extremely out there

[00:31:27] Far stretched away from nature yet these ancient elements are here amongst us all of the time

[00:31:34] Whether we could recognise that or not

[00:31:37] And to still have that touch, to still connect with that and to discover that

[00:31:43] Was also a huge moment for this series alongside the revelation that some of the other previous documentaries had fabricated what they'd found

[00:31:53] But yet the truth was still there, the way of living was still there

[00:31:56] And I found that so powerful

[00:31:58] Halp and Halep's truth does feel really strong throughout the film

[00:32:04] And in how you ended the film, did you end the film in that way anyway?

[00:32:10] Or did you add that in after you heard about his death?

[00:32:15] Gavin Searle is the... he lived and breathed it and that was his way of saying goodbye to Halep and Halep

[00:32:23] And they would be getting up, walking off, leaving shots and going back into the forest

[00:32:29] And it was evident that they would not be around for too much longer

[00:32:35] I mean to make it to that age as Halep and Gatherer is immense

[00:32:39] The delicate, thoughtful, soulful touch to get these shots

[00:32:43] And to see the rolling of the cigarette, to see the last heavenly puff of smoke go up

[00:32:49] And to see those heart failure, heavy laden bloated legs lift up the whole body

[00:32:55] Without the help of the arms, for instance, in the final shots

[00:32:59] And for Halep to walk out of shots was an amazing goodbye

[00:33:05] And I think that was certainly the intention of getting footage like that

[00:33:09] And his laugh at the end?

[00:33:11] That was Halp's laugh put on at the end so he actually got the final goodbye

[00:33:26] Watching it, I thought if there was one major mistake

[00:33:30] Returning, sorry I've got a really weird echo in my...

[00:33:32] That could be Halp

[00:33:37] His ghost is coming back

[00:33:39] If you hear a wist, very loud drip

[00:33:41] Now be careful what you say Alex

[00:33:43] Right, I'll start again

[00:33:46] That fourth visit could have gone very wrong

[00:33:48] Let's be under no illusion

[00:33:50] I think what you've just described there about that very fitting ending

[00:33:54] That they give to Halp and Halep justified it

[00:33:57] And made it all worthwhile in the end

[00:33:59] He's got some water mandas in here

[00:34:02] He's the beast of a chariot, innit?

[00:34:06] Chara, sir, come on

[00:34:08] Bob-omb, yeah?

[00:34:10] Come on, come on

[00:34:11] Chara dengan, come on, yeah?

[00:34:13] He's the beast of a chariot, yeah?

[00:34:15] Bob-omb

[00:34:17] This is going to stop now, Will

[00:34:19] We have to physically restrain this guy

[00:34:21] No, we don't calm you fucking self, alright?

[00:34:23] We're going to throw an arrow, alright?

[00:34:25] We don't physically restrain him

[00:34:27] I don't

[00:34:29] Come on, he did that

[00:34:31] August, August, come on

[00:34:33] That was intense and it could easily have resulted in injury or death

[00:34:40] Certainly for Will Millard

[00:34:42] The intention of pulling a bow on someone you were hoping to be friends with

[00:34:48] That was extremely

[00:34:50] You know, maybe in terms of the

[00:34:54] A television approach

[00:34:56] You could say there were mechanisms

[00:34:59] That were pointing towards a mistake

[00:35:02] But I think in terms of the human aspect of it

[00:35:06] Okay, we've exploded the

[00:35:09] The machinations of how these programs are made

[00:35:11] And we're showing it and laying it all bare

[00:35:13] But, sod that too

[00:35:15] I'm a human being

[00:35:16] And I want to say goodbye to these two people that I have a connection with

[00:35:20] And my heart and soul is so in this

[00:35:23] That I'm willing to just risk almost anything

[00:35:27] To have a last goodbye

[00:35:29] And take him medicine

[00:35:31] I think that's actually really important for me, like practically

[00:35:34] I'm taking him to the medicine because I want him to be okay

[00:35:37] Will, for all his naivety, gives a shit, doesn't he?

[00:35:41] Yeah

[00:35:42] What risks are we willing to take as filmmakers

[00:35:44] And what risks are we willing to put fellow crew members under

[00:35:49] In order to tell a story?

[00:35:51] I'm not trying to criticise anyone here at all

[00:35:53] But I think it just raised a really interesting question to me about

[00:35:57] How risky should television production be

[00:36:01] Had that near-final scene ended with someone being injured or killed

[00:36:08] The question marks around the wisdom of that shoot

[00:36:12] That have been huge, wouldn't they?

[00:36:15] I mean, let's be honest

[00:36:16] Massively, yeah, absolutely

[00:36:19] Yeah

[00:36:20] But the way that the story ran

[00:36:24] And the fact that Halep sat down with Will in the jungle

[00:36:30] And spoke about his fear of death

[00:36:34] Was an amazing story

[00:36:38] When they die, the Korawa believe that they go upstream

[00:36:43] And they find an obstacle which is a large tree

[00:36:46] If they can climb over that tree

[00:36:49] They can meet the other people beyond that tree who are also dead

[00:36:53] And they have joined everyone else

[00:36:56] If their heart is stolen by the evil spirits of the forest, the Hohua

[00:37:01] Then they will become zombies

[00:37:04] But in some way through this film

[00:37:08] Halep really did leave the forest

[00:37:12] Go down that stream

[00:37:14] He went past the obstacle of that giant tree

[00:37:18] And met not only everyone else who had died

[00:37:21] But he actually met all of us on the other side of the world

[00:37:25] And I found that to be such an enormous achievement for filmmakers

[00:37:30] To be able to tell that story and to capture it

[00:37:33] And to deliver it in such a way that it felt like a really big moment

[00:37:38] In TV and a really soulful moment

[00:37:42] That almost didn't matter that some of the previous stuff was artifice

[00:37:48] Because ultimately, whichever walk of life we're in

[00:37:52] Perhaps we're all looking for a similar thing

[00:37:55] We're all going to be going one way or the other

[00:37:59] And that brought the whole story together in such a beautiful way

[00:38:04] That it's never left me since

[00:38:08] Hope and Halep represent the last gasp of a hunter-gatherer culture

[00:38:13] Which for tens of thousands of years defined us all

[00:38:17] And has shaped our bodies and minds today

[00:38:21] They have a rich and deep understanding of a world which I don't share

[00:38:25] And can never attain

[00:38:28] Six months after leaving the Koroi, I'm now left wondering

[00:38:32] Are they still out there?

[00:38:34] Does their way of life even exist anymore?

[00:38:37] Or did I just witness its disappearance?

[00:38:40] Forever

[00:38:43] Did you learn anything as an editor from your experience on that project?

[00:38:47] I mean it's such a cliche but it was immense

[00:38:52] Because it was a part of life almost more than

[00:38:55] Oh it's my job I'm going to edit this

[00:38:58] It was at a time where I had become a dad

[00:39:01] And that affected how I edited

[00:39:04] And working with people like Avian and Will

[00:39:07] Explodes what is possible within rushes and the story

[00:39:13] And I think some people really do want to reach for the truth

[00:39:18] And that can be a very difficult thing to be allowed to do

[00:39:22] And also a very difficult thing to do

[00:39:25] And I think the push towards the truth gave this film a power

[00:39:29] That it stayed with you when you went home

[00:39:32] You could not help but keep dreaming about the tree houses

[00:39:37] Or almost joining the tribe in your personal life

[00:39:41] And as August became a father again

[00:39:44] And his wife Amel delivered her child alone in the forest

[00:39:50] And cut the umbilical cord with a sharp bit of wood

[00:39:54] Alone in the forest and sits underneath the canopy for five days

[00:39:58] Alone so that spirits won't come near to the child

[00:40:02] If other people come near

[00:40:04] It was extremely impactful to me

[00:40:07] Having just become a dad

[00:40:09] And almost losing my wife and child

[00:40:12] Who had a very bumpy landing during the birth

[00:40:16] And wouldn't be there if it wasn't for the fact that we live in the western world

[00:40:21] And had a great hospital that helped them pull through

[00:40:24] And to have that experience so shortly before having worked on this

[00:40:29] Felt made everything feel absolutely real

[00:40:33] And the marriage between how we've had to live

[00:40:39] And come through as hunter gatherers

[00:40:41] And the immense pain and suffering

[00:40:44] That the tribe have to go through just to survive

[00:40:47] Was extremely impactful

[00:40:49] And for Amel to do that

[00:40:52] My God, the women of the species really are the best

[00:40:56] Absolutely stunning

[00:40:58] And actually you did see

[00:41:00] And if you rewatch it as well

[00:41:02] You'll see in Amel's eyes a lot

[00:41:04] I think she's a very powerful figure in August's life

[00:41:08] And also helped to probably safeguard the situation

[00:41:14] In ways that we weren't always aware of

[00:41:17] It was amazing to see marriage in the tribal situation

[00:41:22] Also reflected or shown as a contrast to our lives in the west

[00:41:29] It was so immense

[00:41:31] There is this North Enders tea

[00:41:33] Kind of conversation going on

[00:41:34] And that's a huge part of the film

[00:41:35] But there are real true stories in here of these people

[00:41:38] That they have filmed

[00:41:39] And I feel like you feel a guardian of their stories

[00:41:41] And you wanted to take care of them

[00:41:43] That is it

[00:41:44] It becomes a connection

[00:41:46] That's more than just through the screen

[00:41:49] It's almost a marriage of our lives

[00:41:52] Through the tribal life

[00:41:54] But the true human story

[00:41:56] That is connected in such a powerful way

[00:41:58] That is the privilege of editing

[00:42:01] And you hope to be a guardian of a story

[00:42:05] That is so powerful and meaningful such as that

[00:42:08] And I think that's what the whole team did manage to deliver

[00:42:12] Regardless of the rest of the mechanisms around the series

[00:42:17] I think it did deliver a heartfelt, important human story

[00:42:22] That is now a historical document

[00:42:25] And also a fantastic memory for our lives

[00:42:28] So did you watch all the rushes?

[00:42:31] How did you then glean out these moments

[00:42:35] These glimmers of humanity

[00:42:37] And then form those scenes

[00:42:40] With very little voiceover, with very little music

[00:42:44] How did you actually manage to do that?

[00:42:47] That must have been a big job

[00:42:49] It was

[00:42:50] But we had a fantastic team

[00:42:51] Three editors on it

[00:42:52] And also Gavin was there

[00:42:56] And we had direct input from Will as well

[00:42:59] Will Millard

[00:43:00] So the ground truth was safeguarded

[00:43:03] As far as it was possible

[00:43:05] Sometimes you wonder that you could make an awful lot more out of these series

[00:43:10] As well, if the delivery platform was different

[00:43:13] I mean you think you could do like a YouTube premiere

[00:43:16] And have far more of these scenes

[00:43:18] Every frame that was interesting

[00:43:20] Even stuff that we would see as garbage or tat

[00:43:24] Had the most huge significance

[00:43:27] A lighter, a piece of plastic

[00:43:29] Old batteries, discarded phones

[00:43:31] Really cheap radio

[00:43:33] These items were from almost direct from heaven

[00:43:37] For someone that's been living in the forest

[00:43:39] And suddenly has these amazing trinkets from another world

[00:43:43] It gives you an appreciation of what we have in our lives

[00:43:46] But also there's a sense of loss and sadness

[00:43:49] Where this record is potentially one of the few records

[00:43:52] Of authentic Korowai living

[00:43:54] And now that way that knowledge is gone

[00:43:57] I remember there were some rushes

[00:43:59] Where Will would be walking with Halep

[00:44:02] And he'd say, stop

[00:44:04] And he would see and sense an area of the forest

[00:44:06] And go, that area is bad

[00:44:08] We don't go to that area

[00:44:10] We can feel the spirit there

[00:44:11] We go this area

[00:44:12] How do you know that?

[00:44:13] I've seen that snake there

[00:44:14] That's warning us

[00:44:15] That's telling us that this is not a place that we want to go

[00:44:18] And just the basic mechanism of making segu

[00:44:23] And the grubs

[00:44:25] And how to clear out the elders ears when they're blocked

[00:44:28] How to deal with earwax in the jungle situation

[00:44:31] The way of life is vanished

[00:44:34] And erased to a certain extent

[00:44:36] Because there is no written history

[00:44:38] And once that's gone it really is gone

[00:44:40] And it feels like we've gained something from this series

[00:44:43] But also there's that sense that we're always losing

[00:45:03] Was it an easy decision not to put music on a lot of the scenes?

[00:45:12] There wasn't much music in there at all

[00:45:14] Was that an easy decision to keep it very natural?

[00:45:17] I think the best music was also the singing

[00:45:21] As they're walking round the forest

[00:45:23] You hear their wonderful voices

[00:45:25] And also the whistle-off, shall we say

[00:45:28] Where the immense boredom sits in

[00:45:30] Will Millard is spending two weeks alone

[00:45:33] With Halp and Halup in their final tree house

[00:45:36] The rain's coming down

[00:45:38] They've barely been able to get out of the tree house for eight days

[00:45:41] They're literally starving

[00:45:43] Don't have anything to eat

[00:45:44] And yet they're sitting there having a whistle-off

[00:45:46] Whistling tunes together

[00:45:48] And that is a really beautiful piece of music

[00:45:52] Because it's a hard thing to sit in a room

[00:45:54] And edit this for so long

[00:45:57] Like where did you have fun on this?

[00:45:59] How could you not love?

[00:46:01] There's so many moments that you couldn't fit in

[00:46:05] But when Will is presenting to camera

[00:46:07] Just after Sophie's been born

[00:46:10] And the rain is coming down

[00:46:12] And you have Halp walking past him

[00:46:15] Naked with this amazing oriental-looking umbrella

[00:46:19] This was a moment of genius

[00:46:21] I was thinking the pythons are alive

[00:46:23] And the Korawha culture too

[00:46:25] The transcendence of comedy and happiness

[00:46:28] Knows no bounds, and nor should it

[00:46:31] And also when they were stuck in that tree house for two weeks

[00:46:35] And Halp picks up that little puppy and goes

[00:46:37] Hey, when are you going to go and start hunting for us too?

[00:46:40] And he makes the puppy talk

[00:46:42] That's a good thing, you know, playing with the teddy bear

[00:46:44] Making it talk for your daughter, you know

[00:46:46] It's just...

[00:46:47] We are brother and sister

[00:46:48] We are flesh and blood from the same...

[00:46:50] You know, that was really cuddly

[00:46:53] And transformative in a way where

[00:46:55] Yes, this series was depressing and hard hitting

[00:46:58] But it was also comforting

[00:47:00] And felt like you had a friend far away

[00:47:03] And in terms of the way I approach life

[00:47:07] I felt more of an affinity with Halp and Halp

[00:47:09] Than I do with lots of friends that I've got in London

[00:47:13] Or back at home

[00:47:14] Where I've sensed the ha-hoo-ah

[00:47:16] The bad spirits

[00:47:18] You know, whilst we live in modernity

[00:47:20] We're still surrounded in concrete and wood

[00:47:22] Ancient materials

[00:47:23] I mean, even our bodies are filled with what used to be stars

[00:47:26] Millions of years ago

[00:47:27] So that story is in and around and within us

[00:47:31] And it's alive, whether we see it or not

[00:47:33] Or whether we try and shut ourselves off

[00:47:35] In our western existence

[00:47:37] Or whether we...

[00:47:39] The connection will always be there

[00:47:41] And it's lovely to recognise that

[00:47:43] And that made me happy

[00:47:44] It was so sweet, it was so sweet

[00:47:46] This hum-drum, mundane aspect of existence

[00:47:50] Became really big, deep, meaningful

[00:47:53] Boring but beautiful

[00:47:55] And that was great

[00:47:56] That was a real trick and the real magic of that series

[00:47:59] It was really cool to have that in

[00:48:01] Having had a chance to re-watch the whole series

[00:48:04] And all the memories that that's brought back for you

[00:48:07] I just wondered if you could sum up

[00:48:09] What this series means to you

[00:48:11] I've been dreaming of the Korawae

[00:48:13] And of the tree houses

[00:48:15] And I think the journey that this series has taken

[00:48:19] Help and Halep on

[00:48:21] Bringing them to a relatively large audience

[00:48:24] And carrying so much weight

[00:48:26] In terms of the explosion of the mechanism of television

[00:48:30] But yet, having that human touch

[00:48:33] That story that meant that these hunter-gatherers

[00:48:39] Who have no idea of who else is watching

[00:48:42] This particular series

[00:48:44] Became like distant family almost

[00:48:47] That was the thing that really, really affected me

[00:48:51] In my year with the tribe

[00:48:53] Is that I think it really became all of our year

[00:48:57] Everyone that worked on that series

[00:48:59] Took something away from it

[00:49:01] That felt almost as if it was something to do

[00:49:04] With their own family too

[00:49:06] And it was the human family

[00:49:08] That is a shared experience

[00:49:10] No matter which walk of life you are from

[00:49:12] Or what mechanisms are impacted upon that

[00:49:15] Be it that television or the reach of the government

[00:49:18] Or change of society

[00:49:20] It was a sense of human family

[00:49:22] That was really powerful from my year with the tribe

[00:49:26] Thank you so much

[00:49:27] Yeah, thank you so much Felix

[00:49:29] That was so wonderful to watch and talk through

[00:49:42] Follow Who Moved The Tortoise on X at TortoisePod

[00:49:46] Or email us at whomovedthetortoiseatgmail.com

[00:49:50] A mindless, wittering production