Microcosmos - with James Manisty

[00:00:00] Can I just say that's the first time we've ever done the intro without any mistakes. Fantastic.

[00:00:04] The only thing I'd say is...

[00:00:06] Oh! Bugger!

[00:00:09] It's Wittering Production.

[00:00:21] All I knew is I wanted to try and understand the way the world works, the natural world.

[00:00:28] Explore because we are human.

[00:00:33] Science is the storytelling of our time.

[00:00:36] To me, storytelling has always been the way to be sad.

[00:00:44] Hello, and welcome to Who Moved the Tortoise?

[00:00:47] A podcast about the science and wildlife films that have inspired people.

[00:00:51] I'm Alex Hemingway.

[00:00:53] And I'm Kate Dooley.

[00:00:55] And in each episode we invite someone from the world of science or the media

[00:00:58] to share the thing that inspired them most.

[00:01:01] It can be anything. Fiction, comedy, documentary, animation, whatever.

[00:01:06] The only rule at Tortoise HQ is that it has to have some kind of science or wildlife content.

[00:01:11] This time we're talking to producer-director James Manistey.

[00:01:16] James studied zoology at Edinburgh before going on to be a zookeeper,

[00:01:20] but an incident at Gerald Durrell Zoo in Jersey when he nearly killed a flock of the world's rarest ducks

[00:01:26] led him to find other ways of working with animals.

[00:01:29] Since then, he's spread his wings into the TV industry, producing some of the biggest natural history series out there,

[00:01:36] including A Real Bug's Life for Disney, Supernatural for National Geographic, and Night on Earth for Netflix.

[00:01:43] He's nearly killed David Attenborough twice.

[00:01:45] He's looked after the only two openly gay penguins on Earth in Sydney Zoo.

[00:01:50] He spent a lot of time in Judi Dench's back garden and almost got arrested by MI6.

[00:01:55] James' choice for the film or TV show that inspired him is the 1996 natural history film Microcosmos.

[00:02:04] How difficult was it to choose something as your inspiration?

[00:02:32] I think it was quite difficult, actually, because there was never one seminal moment that really made me think,

[00:02:40] wow, I want to do this for the rest of my career.

[00:02:43] It was a kind of sequence of events that transpired, I think, probably the first.

[00:02:49] I was actually kind of thinking whether or not Honey, I Shrunk the Kids would be a better one for this.

[00:02:55] It's certainly more relatable to most of the audience listening.

[00:02:58] But ultimately, that was something that got me into a kind of a hidden world and introduced me to the drama of natural history,

[00:03:07] or that kind of hidden world in your garden initially.

[00:03:11] But I think Microcosmos was, I chose that because it had that brilliant, it was that kind of middle ground between drama, theatrical,

[00:03:23] kind of cinematic quality and kind of natural history that made me think, actually, this is something that I could do,

[00:03:31] because I don't think I ever thought that, you know, making Honey, I Shrunk the Kids was something that was achievable

[00:03:37] for somebody growing up in the UK and kind of being interested in bugs and stuff.

[00:03:42] So, yeah, I would say Microcosmos.

[00:03:46] I was, like, introduced to it by an uncle who gave me a DVD of it when I was about 15,

[00:03:55] because he remembered, because he lived in Australia.

[00:03:59] And I went out there, because my whole mum's family are from Australia,

[00:04:03] and my cousin used to take me out to the bottom of my granny's garden to show me Sydney funnel webs.

[00:04:11] And he should have known better, because Sydney funnel web spiders are nigh on the most dangerous spider on Earth.

[00:04:17] And they captured my attention massively.

[00:04:19] I thought they were just amazing.

[00:04:21] Yeah, and obviously my uncle kind of understood that I had some kind of passion for it.

[00:04:26] And a couple of years later, he got me this DVD of Microcosmos.

[00:04:31] And it just, you know, it was a seminal moment in that I was always already interested in bugs.

[00:04:37] But this was the thing that made me think, actually, I could probably,

[00:04:40] I could see myself translating that interest into bugs,

[00:04:44] into something that's actually achievable in the UK.

[00:04:46] And then Life in the Undergrowth came along and kind of helped establish it.

[00:05:19] So at 15, what was it about these funnel webs?

[00:05:24] That you found fascinating?

[00:05:26] Were you already into bugs?

[00:05:27] You knew something about them?

[00:05:29] Or did you see something in them that just really spiked your interest?

[00:05:33] I think I'd just been told by my cousin that these things could kill you.

[00:05:37] And that inherent jeopardy of walking down amongst this sort of seemingly safe as houses log pile,

[00:05:46] knowing that there are these animals living beneath my feet that with one bite could just kill a person,

[00:05:52] was exhilarating.

[00:05:55] And then they've just got this amazing defensive display,

[00:05:59] which I saw a couple of times where they rear up on their back legs and show their fangs.

[00:06:04] And it's just, I don't know, some people run away from that stuff.

[00:06:07] To me, that's just, I look at it in hindsight and just think that's, it's incredible.

[00:06:12] So what was your reaction to watching the film then?

[00:06:15] Because it is, I mean, it's a slightly unusual prospect in some ways,

[00:06:19] because you look at the data, you know, it's big budget.

[00:06:22] It made a huge return at the box office.

[00:06:24] It's a big film, big cinema release.

[00:06:27] But it's not your typical kind of natural history film at all, is it?

[00:06:31] So what really grasped me initially was just the cinematic feature film kind of veneer of it.

[00:06:39] It felt not like any science film I'd ever watched.

[00:06:43] I didn't feel like I was being drip fed science facts.

[00:06:47] And for me, somebody who was sort of more into films like, you know, Honey, I Shrunk the Kids,

[00:06:54] that gripped me initially.

[00:06:56] And then, you know, that huge, big, wide opening, expansive shot that takes you from huge clouds

[00:07:02] all the way down into a tiny little undergrowth.

[00:07:05] It made me think, wow, there must be something amazing happening under there.

[00:07:08] So, yeah, I suppose it was that, the fact that I felt like I was watching a feature film,

[00:07:14] not a science documentary that gripped me initially as a kind of 15 year old.

[00:07:19] And then just the fact there's so little comm in it.

[00:07:22] There's so little kind of like information dispensed to you.

[00:07:27] You're just relying on the drama that plays out in front of you.

[00:07:30] And to me, that's really impressive and satisfying narrative storytelling.

[00:07:36] You don't have to explain what's happening.

[00:07:38] You don't have to say what you're seeing.

[00:07:41] You kind of understand inherently that, you know, a stag beetle needs to fight for territory

[00:07:47] or a dung beetle needs to roll its ball of dung up a hill or some snails like to get amorous.

[00:07:53] They like to get it on.

[00:07:54] They do love to get it on.

[00:07:56] To opera.

[00:07:57] Yeah, I just like that.

[00:07:58] As I said, the feature film nature of it, it felt big and grand.

[00:08:03] But also it felt like I wasn't being given a lecture, which kind of hooked me, I think.

[00:08:08] I mean, it is worth saying to the listeners who haven't seen this,

[00:08:11] which you would imagine is most people.

[00:08:13] It's not only that there's very little calm, it's that there's virtually none.

[00:08:17] There's only two bits of calm in the whole 75, 80 minutes.

[00:08:20] And you could argue that even they are, you don't even need them really.

[00:08:24] And the rest is either Foley or sound effects or music.

[00:08:29] It's a bold choice, isn't it?

[00:08:31] I mean, it's a very bold choice.

[00:08:33] Yeah, I think it made some missteps.

[00:08:36] Watching it back again, there's a scene where the Foley and the audio and the music

[00:08:44] sounds very much like a scene from Psycho.

[00:08:46] And then you realise it's actually just a bee flying to a flower.

[00:08:49] And you think, I don't know why they did that.

[00:08:53] But generally speaking, the music is...

[00:08:56] I don't know, it really...

[00:08:58] It kind of...

[00:08:59] What I want when I watch natural history films is I want to feel something.

[00:09:03] I don't just want to learn facts about animals.

[00:09:07] And I think for something as difficult as a bug, it was just really avant-garde, ahead

[00:09:13] of its time, really ambitious in bringing what are quite emotionless animals to the big screen

[00:09:20] and the cinematic techniques they used to get people interested.

[00:09:25] Tugging on your heartstrings, whether it's that snail love scene, which I'm sure we'll

[00:09:29] talk about in more detail later on, or whether it's like the big 2001 Space Odyssey style drums

[00:09:36] behind a stag beetle fighting over territory.

[00:09:40] That made me feel, it made me realise, oh my goodness, there are just dramas playing out

[00:09:45] under my feet at all times.

[00:10:08] I mean, bugs aren't easy to make films about.

[00:10:11] And we've all made a bug film together.

[00:10:14] I know.

[00:10:14] David Attenborough's Micro Monsters 3D.

[00:10:17] 3D.

[00:10:18] We all made together.

[00:10:19] That's where we all met.

[00:10:20] In fact, several years ago.

[00:10:22] It was my first ever show.

[00:10:23] Is that right?

[00:10:24] I'm not sure I remember that.

[00:10:25] Yeah, well, I did some work experience, which involved me getting in a military helicopter

[00:10:30] and flying to St Kilda for a week, which is, I think, the world's most, sorry, the UK's

[00:10:36] most remote island, or at least it has the UK's most remote pub called the Puff Inn,

[00:10:40] which was a two-week work experience thing, which was amazing.

[00:10:43] But yeah, definitely, you know, I was looking for work.

[00:10:47] I didn't know how to get into TV.

[00:10:49] And then I was phoned up by the company and offered one day's work developing, helping to

[00:10:58] develop because I was very junior, Micro Monsters, or what became Micro Monsters.

[00:11:02] And then that turned into three days.

[00:11:03] And then that turned into a week.

[00:11:05] And then you guys all joined in.

[00:11:07] And it was an incredible experience, a massive learning curve for me.

[00:11:12] Yeah, I enjoyed most of it.

[00:11:14] I mean, I really enjoyed that series overall, but it was a struggle.

[00:11:19] And it was a struggle for two reasons, really, wasn't it?

[00:11:22] Like one, the obvious struggle of filming kind of macro bugs at a time when we didn't have

[00:11:28] the benefit really of kind of LED lighting or anything like that.

[00:11:31] So you had these huge hot tungsten lights in little cramped studios and trying to generate

[00:11:37] behavior under those circumstances was tricky.

[00:11:39] But then the added layer of trying to film it in 3D, which I think there were a lot of

[00:11:45] compromises.

[00:11:46] And if you watch it back, there are an awful lot of compromises in that show that come from

[00:11:50] trying to do it in 3D.

[00:11:53] Well, I think that brings you back to Micro Cosmos slightly, because there were so many

[00:11:58] developments technically and technologically which happened between Micro Cosmos and making

[00:12:04] Micro Monsters.

[00:12:05] But the addition of three dimensions and having to film with two different cameras and the

[00:12:11] added light that that required and the technical limitations of the shots that you could get

[00:12:16] almost felt like we were going back to that first pioneering moments.

[00:12:20] Because Micro Cosmos was before Life and the Undergrowth.

[00:12:23] There was a similar 3D show called Bugs 3D with Julie Dench that came out roughly around

[00:12:28] the same time.

[00:12:29] But Micro Cosmos was pioneering.

[00:12:31] And I think, you know, Micro Monsters that we worked on, you know, as you say, it did

[00:12:36] have challenges.

[00:12:37] It did have limitations.

[00:12:38] But I still consider that to be a huge achievement, you know, in terms of what we managed to do

[00:12:43] within the limitations that we had.

[00:12:46] The requirements for filming natural behavior in a studio are tough anyway.

[00:12:51] But when you're shining huge and hot lights down on these little tiny bugs, just makes

[00:12:57] it a hell of a lot harder when you're also trying to make sure that their welfare is looked

[00:13:02] after at the same time.

[00:13:08] From swarms of safari ants and master predators to nurturing spiders.

[00:13:24] Their world is often a strange combination of the bizarre and the sublime.

[00:13:43] These are the Micro Monsters.

[00:13:47] And this is their world.

[00:13:51] So that was a big learning curve for me because I did quite a lot of wrangling on that series

[00:13:55] and looking after bugs.

[00:13:57] I remember I had a hive of honeybees, no, hive of bumblebees in my cupboard at home for

[00:14:04] a while.

[00:14:05] I lost, I think, five massive goliath beetles in my parents' house whilst waiting to go and

[00:14:11] film some of them the day before.

[00:14:13] Or I didn't realize that they could burrow out of a cardboard box.

[00:14:16] So I learned a lot on that series.

[00:14:18] How do your parents feel about playing host to these creatures?

[00:14:21] They weren't aware of it.

[00:14:23] I was staying at their house whilst they weren't there.

[00:14:26] And I actually only found four of the five of them.

[00:14:29] I found the fifth when I went around for dinner with them the next day.

[00:14:33] On the plate?

[00:14:34] No, no, no.

[00:14:35] It had burrowed itself into the curtain.

[00:14:37] And so I kind of, I waited for them to be slightly indisposed and then I kind of shuffled

[00:14:42] it into my pocket and left.

[00:14:46] I just made my excuses and left to go and introduce it back to its friends.

[00:14:52] Did you have any bugs as kids?

[00:14:55] Did you already know how to deal with these kind of creatures or was that something you

[00:14:59] learned as you did it?

[00:15:00] Yeah, well, as we've already learned, my zookeeping abilities were pretty questionable.

[00:15:05] And it was, I would say when I was growing up, I did keep a lot of bugs.

[00:15:10] I used to, there used to be this one tree next to my house, which used to be covered in moths

[00:15:15] and caterpillars every year.

[00:15:17] And I remember very distinctly, it's one of those very kind of visceral memories where I

[00:15:23] used to collect them in jars and the smell of their, of the silk that they would spin to

[00:15:28] create cocoons was like, that's, that's going to be with me for the rest of my life.

[00:15:32] So I used to just watch them develop and feed on leaves.

[00:15:35] And every time I opened that jar, it had a very distinct smell, which is a weird thing

[00:15:41] to, to hark back.

[00:15:43] But it just reminds me, it takes me right back there because I've, I've, I've smelt it since

[00:15:49] and it, uh, it does take me back.

[00:15:51] Weird thing to say.

[00:15:53] In the line of work.

[00:15:55] Yeah.

[00:15:55] Cause you're filming butterflies and caterpillars, I presume.

[00:15:57] Mm-hmm.

[00:15:58] Unless you still keep lots at home.

[00:16:00] I haven't yet, um, introduced, cause I've got a five-year-old son who's a bit more interested

[00:16:05] in engineering.

[00:16:06] Yes.

[00:16:07] Sorry.

[00:16:07] I know.

[00:16:08] Yeah.

[00:16:08] He's going to be, he's going to be a proper engineer or builder, but, um, I haven't yet

[00:16:13] inflicted my bug, uh, addiction on him.

[00:16:17] I'm waiting for the right time, but no, yeah, I used to, I used to be definitely that person

[00:16:23] I used to pull up stones and rocks and check out the wood lice and the centipedes and everything

[00:16:28] like that.

[00:16:28] But I never thought until I was a lot older that that would be something that I'd actually

[00:16:33] end up doing.

[00:16:34] Hmm.

[00:16:35] You talk about the technical advances between microcosmos and micromonsters.

[00:16:40] Of course, you have then more recently worked on a real bugs life for Disney, which we worked

[00:16:46] together on, which we filmed what round two or three years ago.

[00:16:50] How do you feel like returning to a big bug series after that gap?

[00:16:55] Hmm.

[00:16:56] What changed technologically and how did you, how did you find approaching that subject

[00:17:02] with the benefits of the most modern filming technology?

[00:17:06] Well, I mean, it's narratively storytelling.

[00:17:09] It's, it's streets apart.

[00:17:11] I wouldn't say streets ahead.

[00:17:13] I mean, but streets apart from microcosmos, microcosmos is so slow.

[00:17:17] It could do with these days.

[00:17:19] If it was being made today, it would be a third the length.

[00:17:22] I think I counted when I was watching it.

[00:17:24] There's, there's a shot of a leaf, a static locked off shot of a leaf, not even a bug

[00:17:29] in there for 12 and a half seconds, which you wouldn't get away with these days.

[00:17:34] But in terms of the technological differences, I mean, God, we're, we're looking at incredible

[00:17:41] advances in, as we talked about lighting, LED lights just immediately make things a lot

[00:17:46] easier because you're not cooking the bugs with that, with old tungsten lights, robot arms

[00:17:51] that allow you to get like 360 degree kind of smooth motion around a bug with pinpoint precision.

[00:17:59] You can do a, an entire 360 degree loop around a bug in, in about, you know, split second.

[00:18:06] I find those kind of narrative camera techniques are really useful in building character in

[00:18:12] your bugs because as, as we've already discussed, bugs are hard animals to instill, inject to

[00:18:18] kind of anthropomorphize character.

[00:18:20] And you kind of have to do that to bring the audience on board with you.

[00:18:23] But I really like exploring that.

[00:18:25] You know, there are, there are things that you can do in a studio environment with bugs

[00:18:30] in a real bugs life that you just couldn't do with a lion out on the savannah.

[00:18:34] Like you can do dolly zooms to kind of, to instill certain kind of emotions in bugs that

[00:18:40] you potentially do that with a lion in the savannah, but I can't imagine that being particularly

[00:18:44] easy.

[00:18:45] But my episode of bugs, I, with a real bugs life, I found to be, it's coming out, I think

[00:18:51] in about three weeks time.

[00:18:52] It's been ages since we made it, but it's only coming out in about three weeks because

[00:18:56] mine's in series two and it's about a pond in Derbyshire.

[00:19:01] And you know, the, the technical limitations of filming underwater is so hard because I

[00:19:07] think the USP of a real bugs life was getting up and close and personal with your animals

[00:19:13] and really immersing yourself in their lives and being able to see them in their environment.

[00:19:19] And when you're trying to do that with a bug that lives underwater, you're immediately

[00:19:25] presented with a glass panel of, you know, cause when we film these things, we've, we

[00:19:29] have to film a lot of it in studio environments, in tanks, especially bespoke tanks that allow

[00:19:34] us to get different angles.

[00:19:35] But still you've got that panel of glass between you and your subjects.

[00:19:40] And that I found a, an interesting challenge to help to try and overcome.

[00:19:45] And the ability to kind of spin around your subject is hard because if you try and spin

[00:19:50] around a bug underwater, then you're basically creating a whirlpool for them, which is not

[00:19:55] easy.

[00:19:55] It's a, it's interesting one because the limitations of working underwater with bugs, again, brought

[00:20:04] it back to that kind of pioneering kind of, how can we fix this problem?

[00:20:08] And that's one of the things I come back to in macro all the time is I really like working

[00:20:13] with much cleverer people than me to try and fix those technical and sort of creative challenges

[00:20:17] of like, how can we get ourselves immersed in a bug's life?

[00:20:21] Even if you've got that kind of that glass panel in front of you and a murky pond background

[00:20:26] where you can't really see what's going on in the background, you know, I find those

[00:20:30] challenges quite exciting.

[00:20:33] We're back baby and bigger than ever.

[00:20:36] Don't worry though.

[00:20:37] Bugs are still kind of small.

[00:20:40] Whoa, where'd he come from?

[00:20:46] Join me, Aquafina, as we magnify the micro worlds all around us.

[00:20:53] Our cameras are getting closer than ever before in a real bug's life too.

[00:20:58] Well, hello.

[00:21:03] Anyone who's anyone in bug society is here.

[00:21:06] Single and looking for love.

[00:21:08] Oh, oh dear.

[00:21:12] I mean, how'd they even film that?

[00:21:19] Every day, mini dramas are unfolding in bug world.

[00:21:22] And when you're this small, everything's a big deal, okay?

[00:21:25] Hey!

[00:21:26] A Real Bug's Life 2.

[00:21:28] New season streaming January 15th on Disney+.

[00:21:32] About a month ago, I was invited back to my old school to do a talk.

[00:21:36] One of the things that kept cropping up was the question of, and it particularly relates

[00:21:42] to A Real Bug's Life and filming bugs more generally, and that is the amount of control

[00:21:47] that we have over them and the amount of manipulation that we have in order to be able to film those

[00:21:52] stories. How do you approach that tightrope of, you know, what is right morally, what is right ethically,

[00:21:59] what is fair from a sort of a natural history storytelling perspective?

[00:22:04] That's a very good question. I think there are lots of different ways to approach it. I mean, my gut reaction to that question is always, we're always trying to recreate the conditions within a studio

[00:22:17] to allow your character to behave naturally.

[00:22:23] So, if you're trying to get a, I don't know, two bugs to get amorous, get romantic, then you have to do that equivalent of turning on the Barry White and dimming the lights and doing all that kind of stuff to make sure they do what, you know, what they would naturally do in the wild.

[00:22:42] I suppose the line would be crossed when you're trying to force a bug to do something that either it wouldn't do in the wild or it's not happening and you're trying to, you're trying to fake it. I think that's a tricky line to cross. But all of our work when we're, you know, whether it's the cameraman, whether it's the director, whether it's the wrangler, and yes, there is a job.

[00:23:04] Literally, there are people who are, who are bug wranglers, as you both will know, one of the most interesting jobs I can imagine. Everyone's role is to try and make sure your star on set is happy enough to do its thing. And that can, you know, that takes a lot of work. And, you know, when you asked me kind of what that line is, I think that's always my intention is to try and make sure that what you're filming is natural behaviour happening.

[00:23:33] And you're not, you're not faking it in that regard. I think everyone by now, especially when you know, some, some shows these days have disclaimers at the very front of the show, if not at the back saying a lot of these things were filmed under controlled circumstances.

[00:23:49] I think everyone sort of understands that filming tiny little animals can't be done in the wild. But it's, it's making sure that when you're doing it in a studio, it's, it's as natural as it can be. And that's my basically, I always ask myself that when we're when we're setting up shoots and trying to make sure the bugs are doing their thing naturally, with the help of the right conditions and the right scientists, etc.

[00:24:17] I think, I suppose that's my, that's my answer to that. But it is hard.

[00:24:21] I remember, like, particularly the early production meetings on that series was really, it was a lot of conversation around.

[00:24:28] On my monsters, yeah.

[00:24:29] No, no, I mean, on, on A Real Bug's Life.

[00:24:31] Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah.

[00:24:32] It was about where that line is. And there was one example that kept cropping up. And I won't name it for two reasons. One, because it wouldn't be fair to slag something off on here. And two, I can't remember what the series was called.

[00:24:43] So it doesn't matter. But there was, there was a bug, there was a bug, there was a bugsy series from the last five years or so that, that from the outset, if you sit down and watch it, you feel they've stepped over that line straight away.

[00:24:56] Now that was a, that was clearly a choice. And it's a legitimate choice on that, on their part. But I, you know, there was one scene of a, I think it starts off with a hamster in a hamster.

[00:25:06] I know what you're saying.

[00:25:07] Rolling out into the streets.

[00:25:08] And it goes down a lift.

[00:25:08] Down in a lift and out into the streets of Manhattan or somewhere. And you're just kind of thinking, no, you've, you've, you've, you've not only sort of stepped over the line, you've kind of run past it and kept going.

[00:25:17] They can't even see the line.

[00:25:19] No, you can't even see the line anymore.

[00:25:20] And I, and I think that is kind of what kept us honest on, on A Real Bug's Life.

[00:25:24] I know. I mean, because I think ultimately when you're talking about that specific example, a hamster going down a lift.

[00:25:31] I mean, my hamster Hazel would have done that quite happily.

[00:25:34] Well, in that case, this is completely transforming mine.

[00:25:36] She would have gone anywhere.

[00:25:37] How would she have pressed the buttons?

[00:25:40] It would have just opened someone else.

[00:25:41] She would have waited patiently for somebody to get in the layup.

[00:25:42] Yeah, exactly. Or maybe someone was taking, I was taking her for a walk. I don't know.

[00:25:47] It's not about like, you know, how it happened.

[00:25:49] But I suppose my, you know, when you describe that, you're creating jeopardy where there is none.

[00:25:54] And it's not based on any natural history kind of.

[00:25:57] No, it's not someone taking their own hamster for a walk, which is cute and fun.

[00:26:01] And it's just, yeah, it's making me up.

[00:26:02] I mean, that was just one example of many in that, you know, having watched the rest of that series.

[00:26:06] They were, as you say, it was sort of creating jeopardy for the sake of jeopardy that was not related to natural behaviour or otherwise.

[00:26:14] And until somebody publishes a paper on Kate's hamster.

[00:26:18] She's long dead, sorry.

[00:26:20] R.A.P. Hazel.

[00:26:21] But yeah, with A Real Bug's Life, I thought that, yeah, you're right.

[00:26:24] The line is hard because it is very anthropomorphising.

[00:26:28] It's very dynamic.

[00:26:29] It's hyper real.

[00:26:32] But every sequence that I can think of is fundamentally based on a real behaviour that you're just telling in a really cool way.

[00:26:40] With really cool con by Aquafina or just camera cinematic techniques that kind of give more context and character to those animals.

[00:26:52] But you're still staying true to that animal's behaviour.

[00:26:55] And I know from our experience working on it that that was basically, you know, that was the forefront of our mind when we were going into the studio.

[00:27:02] It was just trying to make sure that we were giving those animals the best environments in which to do their thing.

[00:27:09] And we just used all the tech that we had at our disposal to turn that into a cool show.

[00:27:15] I'm really proud of that show.

[00:27:16] I think it's amazing.

[00:27:17] What was the toughest bit of behaviour that you attempted to capture on that series?

[00:27:21] So I don't think we got the Barry White right with sticklebacks.

[00:27:26] So sticklebacks are fish.

[00:27:28] So they're not strictly bugs, but they were small enough to be considered bugs for my show.

[00:27:33] And we, I think we tried for two weeks to try and get sticklebacks to mate.

[00:27:39] And it was a real challenge.

[00:27:41] And I think it's because we did a reshoot later on with a slightly different setup.

[00:27:46] But I think it's because males will, will, will, will court like that.

[00:27:51] Like they are.

[00:27:52] Of course they do.

[00:27:54] They will try it on at a moment's notice.

[00:27:57] But, but the females, I don't think I'd quite anticipated quite how choosy the females would be.

[00:28:02] And we only had five and apparently a male success ratio is a lot worse than that.

[00:28:07] I think you need about 20 or 25 females.

[00:28:11] Sounds like a classic disco kind of scenario, no?

[00:28:14] Yeah.

[00:28:15] Yeah.

[00:28:16] Yeah.

[00:28:16] So we, we ended up going to a proper lab where there were thousands of them and the behavior happened immediately.

[00:28:23] But yeah, we only had five females and none of the females found our males attractive in any way.

[00:28:29] And so it really brought me back to, back to, back to school.

[00:28:34] My first ever discos, trying my hardest.

[00:28:37] I should have gone to a, anyway, it doesn't matter.

[00:28:42] And stop the analogy now.

[00:28:43] Dull that out.

[00:28:43] I don't know where that analogy is taking me.

[00:28:46] What I love is that, and perhaps what people don't realize is that when you're working on these shows, you really are going to the scientists.

[00:28:53] You're reading papers.

[00:28:54] There are, there are science papers.

[00:28:56] There are journals dedicated to all these little bits of behavior of these animals with their evolution, with all their different traits.

[00:29:05] And I think that's fascinating.

[00:29:07] People perhaps might not realize that.

[00:29:09] Tell us a little bit about that process for you and what you love about it.

[00:29:13] I think one of the sequences that I'm most proud of directing was for Supernatural.

[00:29:20] So Supernatural was a little, another little scene show that I worked on.

[00:29:26] Again, I'm super proud of it, but for various tax reasons that I'm not massively on top of,

[00:29:33] Nat Geo had to take it down two months after it went out on Disney+.

[00:29:36] Really?

[00:29:37] Yeah, I know.

[00:29:38] So it's not on, it's, you can't, you can't watch it.

[00:29:41] But I spent like two years of my life making it.

[00:29:43] But it was great.

[00:29:45] It was narrated by Benedict Cumberbatch.

[00:29:47] It was a show about the secret superpowers of, of animals and, and, you know, how they can perceive pheromones and they can hear things that you can't hear.

[00:29:58] They can see things you can't see.

[00:29:59] And so we used CGI and, and, and cool camera techniques to kind of reveal those, those awesome kind of superpowers.

[00:30:06] And one of the stories that I'm most proud of is about the vampire jumping spider, probably my, my new favorite.

[00:30:13] It used to be the, the, um, Sydney funnel web, but this spider is incredible.

[00:30:18] And I found it through a piece of, I think it was a, it was a, an article on the Guardian website where it said vampire spiders could help combat malaria and immediately hooked me.

[00:30:30] And then I found the scientists and I found all of these papers about this tiny little jumping spider called the vampire jumping spider, which in order to impress a female, just hold on for a second.

[00:30:41] In order to impress a female, it has to smell of human blood.

[00:30:45] And the way it gets human blood is by attacking mosquitoes that have fed on human blood.

[00:30:51] And so, so I went to Lake Victoria in Kenya, kind of the malaria hotspot of earth pretty much.

[00:30:57] And filmed these spiders stalking that they can smell just like mosquitoes can smell humans.

[00:31:05] The spiders have also learned to, to follow the smell of cheesy feet.

[00:31:10] Um, so there were a lot of those spiders circling around me, which made it a lot easier to catch them.

[00:31:18] Only the size of a grain of rice.

[00:31:21] A male vampire spider is desperate to win attention with his courtship ritual.

[00:31:31] But the female of the species is into some pretty freaky stuff.

[00:31:39] And right now, he's just not doing it for her.

[00:31:45] How important is kind of having firsts being able to film things that haven't been done before?

[00:31:52] Like, are you excited about that because you know it?

[00:31:54] Or do you think audiences know about it?

[00:31:57] As a PD now, how do you approach that?

[00:32:01] It's a big buzzword.

[00:32:03] I think people love to hear, execs love to hear this has been shot for the first time.

[00:32:08] I think sometimes if it's quite nuanced, I don't think the general public really minds.

[00:32:12] I think they're far more interested in a really, you know, engaging, immersive story.

[00:32:17] But as a professional, that's one of the things I love about filming bugs.

[00:32:22] Because there's one or two species of lion.

[00:32:24] I don't even know, to be honest.

[00:32:26] Is there one species of lion?

[00:32:27] Two?

[00:32:28] Who knows?

[00:32:29] There are 40,000 species of beetles.

[00:32:31] And you can find a world first filmed before bug species like that.

[00:32:39] I feel like it's easier to find those secrets in the bug world because it's so much more diverse.

[00:32:46] It's less explored.

[00:32:49] You know, it's hard to find a world first in a lion or a bear or a cheetah sequence.

[00:32:53] And credit to the people who manage to find a population of cheetahs that are hunting at night or something.

[00:32:59] But I find that the world of bugs is a kind of untapped resource still.

[00:33:04] There's so much still to explore about them.

[00:33:06] I was filming out in Australia last year, beginning of last year, with Alan Henderson.

[00:33:12] Oh, yeah.

[00:33:13] Who is a legendary bug wrangler in...

[00:33:17] Well, you know him as well.

[00:33:18] We filmed in Australia with him.

[00:33:18] Sorry, I forget.

[00:33:20] We both went to Australia some years ago to film with Alan Henderson.

[00:33:23] So I was back in Kuranda with him at the beginning of last year.

[00:33:27] And this experience sort of speaks to what you've just been saying.

[00:33:30] And that is that he'd been out on a kind of a gathering expedition into God knows where, into the outback.

[00:33:35] And on the last day, stumbled across an entirely new species of spider unknown to science.

[00:33:41] And this was something that was probably the size of your hand.

[00:33:44] Wow.

[00:33:45] That in itself was an amazing story when he was telling it to us.

[00:33:48] And where that story became even more amazing and bordering on the unbelievable was that about a month later, he was sat at home in that house in the rainforest that you have been to.

[00:34:02] With his two kids.

[00:34:03] When he saw something out of the corner of his eye in the lounge.

[00:34:07] And it was a spider crawling out from behind a picture on the wall.

[00:34:11] And it was the same species.

[00:34:13] Where this conversation went was the idea that you could walk out of his home and find 10 new species of bug in a week if you just looked hard enough.

[00:34:23] And nine of them will be named after David Attenborough.

[00:34:25] Yes.

[00:34:26] Yeah.

[00:34:26] What that comes back to is, as you say, just, you know, the bug world is a hugely untapped and poorly understood in the grand scheme of things kind of world.

[00:34:37] I suppose that's what Microcosmos was about, was about giving bugs a better rep, maybe.

[00:34:45] I think the filmmakers, they loved bugs.

[00:34:48] I mean, the film was a real kind of journey for them.

[00:34:52] They were biologists.

[00:34:53] They were kind of 15 years, I think, studying things, trying to make work at how they could make these kinds of films.

[00:35:00] Then two years of technical prep, building the specific cameras and the kind of moving parts to get the cameras in place that wouldn't vibrate because these bugs are very sensitive to vibrations.

[00:35:12] So they did a lot of preparation to get them to this point to perhaps giving bugs a PR job.

[00:35:19] I don't know, you know, showing them because they are a little bit misunderstood.

[00:35:24] They are largely feared or we only think they are pollinators or pests, you know.

[00:35:31] And actually what this film does, what Micro Monsters in 3D tried to do and what your bug's life does is go, let's go down into their world and show them in a whole new light.

[00:35:45] Yeah, I mean, God, I wish we had two years of preparation for our shows.

[00:35:51] I mean, that would have been great.

[00:35:51] I remember going with Rob Hollingworth, who I think has been on this podcast before, absolutely legendary macro cameraman to Germany to film with this incredible bee scientist who had about, I think about 15 different hives around his house.

[00:36:06] And we only had four days to film this behavior of honeybees forming this ball in winter.

[00:36:13] And he had developed this, he had this hive inside this tree trunk that had little portals that we could poke a really tiny little camera through that we had made specifically for this job.

[00:36:25] A little kind of articulating arm with a tiny sensor at the end of it, just so if you were to make that hole any bigger, then it would have frozen those bees solid, basically, because the weather was so cold.

[00:36:39] So we had to find these incredible ways of getting into the beehive.

[00:36:43] But what I'm saying is, the reason why I mention this is because we did all this preparation to build this camera rig to make it so that we could like twist a little knob and turn the camera to turn left and right when we were inside a natural hive.

[00:36:57] But what we didn't realize was that there was a tiny little electric current passing through the camera at the very front of it.

[00:37:04] And that was annoying the bees because the bees are seriously sensitive to electrical charge.

[00:37:12] And so our bee scientist was looking over our shoulder and he was saying, right, when I see one bee doing an alarm waggle or some kind of defensive posture, then I'll tell you.

[00:37:23] If I see two, then you've got like five seconds to get the camera out.

[00:37:27] Because if I see three, that means they're all going to go crazy and they're going to fly out at you, even in the middle of the winter.

[00:37:33] And it's those kinds of things that you learn on location that I can only imagine what the people making Microcosmos were having to contend with.

[00:37:43] But yeah, the kind of the technical requirements to film things that small are obscene.

[00:37:48] And I think it's just a constant learning journey.

[00:37:51] But what it offers you is amazing.

[00:37:54] And the cinematography of all the films we've been talking about is astounding, approaching, making these ordinary things extraordinary by being on their level inside their world where they appear either kind of normal size or giant in a way.

[00:38:10] Gives you a whole new respect for them and what they're doing, right?

[00:38:14] Yeah, I think going to the craft of revealing these animals in a completely different way.

[00:38:19] I think that's where I get most of my enjoyment really is like the storyboarding, the kind of working out.

[00:38:28] Because with bugs, a bit unlike the bigger animals like lions and bears, you can really kind of plan your story according to what they do.

[00:38:38] You ask yourself, what do they do in real life?

[00:38:40] Kind of what's their motivation?

[00:38:41] How can we make this relatable to the general public?

[00:38:45] And then you can storyboard it and really design using, you know, with people like Rob and other macro cameramen, you can design camera moves and shots that really build that suspense and build that character.

[00:38:56] You know, if it's a terrifying starling that's attacking a spider, then you would shoot it from low down looking up and it would feel really, you know, really dangerous.

[00:39:07] Whereas if you're a tiny little spider being attacked by a starling, you could shoot that from a high angle looking down.

[00:39:12] And that really builds character in a way that I feel you can't do with a lot of other kind of elements of natural history.

[00:39:20] And that's what I find planning that and storyboarding it almost as fun as shooting it and editing it.

[00:39:59] I think having read reviews and articles about the film seems to be the most talked about scene of the film, which is the slug sex scene.

[00:40:10] Set to opera rather than Barry White.

[00:40:14] They face each other when they get it on.

[00:40:18] They're writhing around.

[00:40:19] And I get it.

[00:40:20] The music choice is brilliant.

[00:40:22] But I still feel a little bit icky watching it.

[00:40:26] When you watch it, how do you feel?

[00:40:28] And do you think that's something that making these films, something's always going to be a bit icky to people because bugs are what they are?

[00:40:37] Yeah, well, I always have to keep that kind of reality check in my brain because I found that absolutely hilarious.

[00:40:43] One of the things I love about this is that you can inject humor into it.

[00:40:46] But I think the most important thing is that it makes you feel.

[00:40:50] It made you feel something.

[00:40:52] And it made me feel a lot of emotions.

[00:40:56] But do you want to share what those emotions are?

[00:41:00] Yeah.

[00:41:02] Well, to quote Blackadder, it's so great that my hobby is in fact my job.

[00:41:09] No.

[00:41:10] I think they missed a trick.

[00:41:12] They should have had Je T'aime as the soundtrack for that.

[00:41:16] The opera worked because it was so over the top for me.

[00:41:20] It basically showed two animals making love.

[00:41:24] They're slow animals.

[00:41:26] They are kind of slimy.

[00:41:28] Not many people like to sort of get too close to a snail.

[00:41:32] I know they look cute to some people, but a lot of people like you, Kate, find them pretty disgusting.

[00:41:37] But it showed a real kind of sensitivity.

[00:41:41] I think there were those moments where the two little eyes touched and they kind of going, ooh.

[00:41:47] It felt like a first date.

[00:41:51] Oh, yeah.

[00:41:51] And then obviously the opera music comes right in and they go hard at it.

[00:41:57] But at a snail's pace.

[00:42:00] I never thought we'd be talking about this in this way on the podcast.

[00:42:03] I don't know about you, but I didn't feel like I needed any comm for that.

[00:42:06] I was just sitting back and watching it.

[00:42:08] I didn't need to know the gory details.

[00:42:10] I just thought, oh, wow, that's super romantic, very funny.

[00:42:14] And it made me feel, I think, is the main thing.

[00:42:19] And I think there are a lot of documentaries that kind of miss that element.

[00:42:25] It becomes very lectury.

[00:42:27] And I don't think it...

[00:42:28] You can say what you want about microcosmos, but what you can't say is that it's lectury.

[00:42:34] Lectury.

[00:42:35] I think it's arty, it's poetic, it's revelatory and it's emotive.

[00:42:41] And that's what really got me.

[00:42:43] And it made me think, oh, I want to turn Bugs into a kind of...

[00:42:47] Into a drama.

[00:42:49] Whilst staying scientifically accurate, obviously.

[00:42:52] How did you feel watching it again?

[00:42:54] And what does it mean to you, that film?

[00:42:57] Everything's moved on so much since it came out.

[00:43:00] And it's aged a lot.

[00:43:03] But in some respects, it's also stayed really relevant.

[00:43:08] There are loads of kind of techniques and tropes that you see in natural history programs these days

[00:43:13] that I think draw massively from that show.

[00:43:17] So kind of, I think the one element that always comes back to me is showing how something as seemingly kind of nondescript as a small rainfall

[00:43:28] can be like a ginormous kind of hurricane for a bug.

[00:43:33] And, you know, those techniques are still being used.

[00:43:36] I think there's a mosquito emergence seen in microcosmos, you know, amongst massively falling raindrops.

[00:43:43] And you think, oh, my goodness me, that must be absolutely impossible for that bug doing that amongst this huge kind of...

[00:43:49] These raindrops that are the size of it.

[00:43:52] But there's a scene in...

[00:43:53] I don't know if you've seen Tiny World for Apple.

[00:43:56] There's a brilliant scene where there are these...

[00:43:59] I think it's two poisoned dart frogs are fighting.

[00:44:02] And you're right in close with them.

[00:44:04] It's a bit like the Jason...

[00:44:05] The Bourne Identity, the Jason Bourne films.

[00:44:07] And it is so emotive.

[00:44:09] They're fighting.

[00:44:10] It's violent.

[00:44:11] And you think, oh, my goodness, this is life and death.

[00:44:13] And then it cuts out to a wide shot.

[00:44:15] The music stops and it's just some...

[00:44:19] And they're just slapping each other in the undergrowth.

[00:44:22] And you kind of realise, oh, my goodness, that huge kind of event for those frogs is happening on such a tiny scale.

[00:44:30] And there's a comedic element to that as well.

[00:44:32] But all of those kinds of cinematic techniques, I think, draw back to those early films.

[00:44:39] Like Microcosmos, where you're kind of revealing these hidden worlds, these huge dramas that are happening on a tiny scale that you might just walk past and not even know they're happening.

[00:44:49] So I suppose that's my...

[00:44:50] That's what I think about it.

[00:44:52] I think it's very dated.

[00:44:55] But it's still...

[00:44:56] But it's still...

[00:44:57] I think it's inspired a lot of that macro and other filmmaking since, I would say.

[00:45:03] For you personally, how did it make you feel?

[00:45:06] Did you take you back to when you were 15?

[00:45:10] I suppose looking back on it, I felt quite proud that having watched that show and been so inspired by it that I actually have managed to somehow forge a career in that exact same kind of industry.

[00:45:30] Something that I don't think...

[00:45:31] I don't think I truly believed that was possible at the time.

[00:45:35] I just watched it and I thought, oh my goodness, that's incredible.

[00:45:39] And by some happenstance, chance, whatever you call it, I suddenly found myself making macro films and natural history, which I think, yeah, I'm pretty proud about, I would say.

[00:45:55] To buy tickets and find out more about our live recording at the Royal Institution, go to www.rigb.org, click on What's On, and scroll down to Sunday 9th February.

[00:46:08] Tickets are £7 for Royal Institution members and patrons, £10 for concessions, and £16 for everyone else.