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[00:00:00] Dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, dun, sorry. Oh shit, I'm starting. Okay.
[00:00:05] Quiet on set.
[00:00:11] All I knew is I wanted to try and understand the way the world works, the natural world.
[00:00:18] We explore because we are human.
[00:00:23] Science is the storytelling of our time.
[00:00:27] To me, storytelling has always been the way to the south.
[00:00:35] Hello and welcome to Who Moved the Tortoise?
[00:00:38] A podcast about the science and wildlife films that have inspired people.
[00:00:42] I'm Kate Dooley.
[00:00:43] And I'm Alex Hemingway.
[00:00:45] In each episode we invite someone from the world of science or the media
[00:00:48] to share the thing that inspired them most.
[00:00:51] It could be anything. Fiction, comedy, documentary, animation, whatever.
[00:00:56] The only rule at Tortoise HQ is that it has to have some kind of science or wildlife content.
[00:01:01] This time we're talking to BBC Natural History Unit executive producer Mike Davis.
[00:01:08] Mike studied at Portsmouth University.
[00:01:10] A lucky encounter landed him a runner's job at London VFX Studio Framestore in their heyday.
[00:01:16] He worked on some of their top projects including Walking with Dinosaurs and Mission Impossible 2.
[00:01:22] Mike later moved into production on VFX heavy projects like The Universe with Stephen Hawking
[00:01:27] and David Attenborough's Natural History Museum Alive.
[00:01:30] Most recently he was the showrunner on Morgan Freeman narrated Our Universe.
[00:01:35] But he's not always been behind the camera.
[00:01:37] He pretended to be a fisherman chumming the waters to attract a megalodon.
[00:01:41] And he's been the stand-in for an Australopithecus running into shot
[00:01:45] to scare a huge group of vultures off a zebra carcass.
[00:01:48] Mike's choice for the film or TV show that's inspired him is the 1993 blockbuster Jurassic Park.
[00:02:38] Right. Where do we begin?
[00:02:40] I mean, first of all, you've chosen...
[00:02:43] I mean, I'm so pleased with what you've chosen.
[00:02:45] Amazing.
[00:02:46] And we can't wait to get our teeth into it.
[00:02:48] It was a joy to have the excuse of sitting at home and watching it again.
[00:02:51] Before we dive into that, how hard was it to choose your inspiration?
[00:02:57] Well, as you say, I guess listening to your previous podcast,
[00:03:02] you know, it is a little off-piece being, you know, scripted, a drama as it were.
[00:03:07] But it felt like I could speak to it so clearly in terms of my career.
[00:03:12] And it meant so much to me when I first kind of saw it in my teens that,
[00:03:15] yeah, it was an obvious choice.
[00:03:17] Though I do have to say, at one point I did think about the AHA Take On Me video,
[00:03:21] which probably just got my creative brain going as a sort of 10-year-old
[00:03:27] more than any other piece of visual kind of media.
[00:03:57] I was a big fan of AHA.
[00:03:59] But just that storyboarded kind of animation got me drawing and storyboarding
[00:04:03] and thinking about, you know, sequences and visuals in a way that perhaps nothing else did.
[00:04:08] But I think that would have been a harder one to talk about.
[00:04:10] Whereas with Jurassic Park, we're on safer territory with dinosaurs.
[00:04:13] And I think there's a lot in terms of non-fiction that Jurassic Park has inspired.
[00:04:17] But certainly me, huge inspiration and blew my mind when I saw it.
[00:04:22] Shall we get in the time machine, go back to Friday, the 16th of July, 1993?
[00:04:27] I'm afraid I'm going to have to correct you.
[00:04:29] Go on.
[00:04:29] I saw it on Thursday, the 15th of July, 1993.
[00:04:33] Yeah, and I'm only being pedantic because I vividly remember seeing it on that night
[00:04:37] before the official release.
[00:04:38] It was a preview screening.
[00:04:40] It was at the Orpheus or ABC Henleys Cinema in Bristol.
[00:04:44] And I vividly remember going to see it on that day before and just feeling like I'd sort of,
[00:04:49] you know, had a special preview of something that everyone was going to see and flocked
[00:04:53] to the cinema to see the next few days because I'm sure it was queues around the block.
[00:04:57] But somehow I got, you know, a Thursday night screening.
[00:04:59] So I saw it in the few days after.
[00:05:02] It's the first cinema experience that I can remember definitely going to see.
[00:05:07] I was 12.
[00:05:09] And I mean, it was kind of life-changing for me.
[00:05:11] But tell us a bit about yourself at that time.
[00:05:13] How old are you?
[00:05:14] Where are you?
[00:05:15] What stage of your life are you at?
[00:05:17] So I'm 17.
[00:05:18] So I guess I'm a little older.
[00:05:21] And I similarly remember seeing, you know, E.T., Return of the Jedi,
[00:05:25] Indiana Jones and the Temple of Doom, Ghostbusters,
[00:05:27] a few years earlier being kind of that prime.
[00:05:29] I've got an 11-year-old son.
[00:05:31] Getting the excitement of seeing something on the big screen that you're...
[00:05:34] So 17 was a little older, but I was a bit more sort of cine-literar, I suppose.
[00:05:38] I was studying film at South Bristol College.
[00:05:42] So we were watching a lot.
[00:05:44] And I was learning a lot about cinema at the time.
[00:05:46] Spielberg had always been a huge part of my life up to that point.
[00:05:49] But at that point, you know, we were watching Sergio Leone and, you know, Italian neorealism.
[00:05:55] And so I was kind of really primed and going to the cinema a lot.
[00:05:58] And I was kind of receptive to Jurassic Park, I suppose.
[00:06:02] But like you, it was such a major cinema-going experience.
[00:06:08] My dad had been to see Jaws before I was born or around the time I was born
[00:06:12] and said that that was a visceral response in the cinema where people were running up and down.
[00:06:16] And I've subsequently seen films in the U.S.
[00:06:19] And the American audience tends to be a lot more kind of, you know,
[00:06:21] like I saw a James Bond film in the U.S.
[00:06:23] And everyone's like, go, Bart!
[00:06:24] You're really kind of bigger response than UK audiences tend to be.
[00:06:27] However, my memory of seeing Jurassic Park is that just the whole audience were lifted by moments.
[00:06:33] And certainly the being plucked off the toilet seat,
[00:06:37] people were clambering around on the chairs and screaming and shouting.
[00:06:41] And I just remember the impact of that and thinking I've never quite been in a screening.
[00:06:45] As awesome as this and as kind of, you know, getting such a reaction from the audience as this.
[00:07:15] And I remember the sort of temperature and the sound.
[00:07:18] And like you guys, I'm sure there are certain key things in it that still make the hairs on the back of your neck stand up,
[00:07:23] whether it's the theme or the sound design or...
[00:07:26] But really remember seeing it.
[00:07:28] And I was, as I say, you know, studying film at the time and just about to go to study,
[00:07:33] you know, to make films, as it were, when I went to Portsmouth University.
[00:07:36] So it just lit my imagination and I was absolute convert to Spielberg at that point.
[00:07:41] I mean, I was talking to my husband about this earlier and he was like,
[00:07:44] after this, in the playground, people were playing.
[00:07:47] Like, are you going to be the T-Rex or are you going to be the Velociraptor?
[00:07:51] Like it just across society and across the film industry had such a huge impact.
[00:07:58] When you watched it, you were studying film, were you kind of like, wow, this is going to change things?
[00:08:04] Or were you just watching it and blown away by it?
[00:08:07] Well, I mean, I guess we'll come to the CGI point, which did totally change things.
[00:08:11] And there's a lot said about how it kind of completely changed Hollywood in terms of its use of computer generated imagery.
[00:08:16] I'd always loved dinosaurs.
[00:08:18] I also loved sharks.
[00:08:19] That was probably, you know, Jaws influenced.
[00:08:22] You know, I think Spielberg, I think you said in an earlier podcast that, you know,
[00:08:25] Nazis, sharks, UFOs and dinosaurs, perennial kind of, you know, nonfiction subject matter.
[00:08:31] And obviously Spielberg set the templates for that a little bit in terms of our younger imaginations being fired by some of those subjects.
[00:08:36] But I'd always loved dinosaurs, had the plastic dinosaurs we all used to play with.
[00:08:42] I really remember in Sunday school, not something that often, you know, kids go to these days, but I think probably our generation did.
[00:08:48] I remember putting my hand up and saying, where are the dinosaurs in the Bible?
[00:08:51] And, you know, God, shut that guy up quick.
[00:08:54] You know, but there was a kind of, there was a real awareness of dinosaurs being this, you know,
[00:08:58] and I loved Ray Harryhausen and a lot of those kind of slightly hokey land that time forgot type Doug McClure things.
[00:09:03] You know, they were kind of, they were cool creatures that were monsters, but they'd lived on earth and we'd never been able to recreate them in the way that then became possible with Jurassic Park.
[00:09:13] So dinosaurs were kind of a big part of my imagination, but I think it was just how believable they were in Jurassic Park and I guess how believable they still are.
[00:09:24] What kind of metabolism do they have? What's their growth rate?
[00:09:26] They're lethal at eight months and I do mean lethal.
[00:09:30] I've hunted most things that can hunt you, but the way these things move.
[00:09:32] A fast for a bike, yeah?
[00:09:34] Cheetah speed.
[00:09:35] 50, 60 miles per hour if they ever got out in the open.
[00:09:38] And they're astonishing jumpers.
[00:09:40] Yes, yes, yes, yes.
[00:09:40] So that's why we're taking extreme precautions.
[00:09:43] The viewing area...
[00:09:44] Do they show intelligence?
[00:09:46] What's the brain cavity?
[00:09:47] They show extreme intelligence.
[00:09:49] Even problem-solving intelligence.
[00:09:51] Especially the big one.
[00:09:53] We bred eight originally, but when she came in, she took over the pride and killed all but two of the others.
[00:09:58] That one, when she looks at you, you can see she's working things out.
[00:10:05] But I suppose that's why it got such an amazing reaction when we saw it in the cinema was because it really did...
[00:10:12] There was just no seams.
[00:10:13] You know, it felt utterly real.
[00:10:15] You were completely there in this park with these living, breathing animals and they were terrifying and, you know, awe-inspiring.
[00:10:23] Do you remember much about the build-up to the release?
[00:10:26] Because, you know, at 12 I think I was probably a bit young to have kind of appreciated this huge blockbuster maybe that was to come.
[00:10:32] But at 17 and someone who was incredibly keen on film, was there a lot of talk until the release?
[00:10:39] Was, you know, was there a lot of hype?
[00:10:40] Was there a sense that this was going to be a game-changer?
[00:10:42] There was a lot of hype and I do remember being excited for months leading up to it.
[00:10:47] I'd read the book as well, the Michael Crichton novel, I think, had come out a year or so previously.
[00:10:53] I think, having read about it, I think that actually the book was being written at the time that it was a bit like Jaws.
[00:11:00] It was kind of already optioned before it had been hit the shelves.
[00:11:03] But I'm pretty sure I had read the book beforehand.
[00:11:05] And actually, going back to it, the book is very different from the film and, you know, kind of has a whole bunch of other things going on, which are really interesting in itself.
[00:11:11] But I think I definitely read the book, I'm sure, and I had that in my head.
[00:11:15] So I kind of knew what to expect.
[00:11:16] And having followed Spielberg's career, I think he just made Hook.
[00:11:20] And that hadn't been hugely popular, but certainly that kind of run of Indiana Jones and through sort of his big hitches, I was definitely looking out for the next Spielberg movie.
[00:11:29] And I think the combination of Spielberg and dinosaurs was, yeah, mouth-watering.
[00:11:33] That said, as you know, you know, there was no internet and there was no real spoiler opportunity.
[00:11:39] So you could be teased by it.
[00:11:41] And I'm not even sure if there's a dinosaur in the trailer that was in cinemas at the time, maybe a foot stamps down or something.
[00:11:46] But there was still a whole lot to be revealed when you saw it on the big screen.
[00:11:50] And I guess that's why it made such a big impact, because you had the excitement of what was to come.
[00:11:55] But then it really delivered on that, you know?
[00:11:56] Yeah, the film was greenlit before the book was even finished.
[00:12:00] And as I understand it, Michael Crichton was kept on to write the screenplay, primarily because Spielberg wanted him to pare the book down in the most efficient way to keep the kind of the most pertinent elements of the book for the film.
[00:12:13] And I think, I mean, if you dive into it online, and there's obviously an awful lot written about both the book and the film, it does seem to be a rare example where the book and the film are held in pretty much equal regard, even though they are very different.
[00:12:26] Yeah, indeed.
[00:12:27] And obviously, Crichton had a career after that, which, you know, he directed, you know, Andromeda Strain and Westworld and things before that.
[00:12:35] And obviously, he'd been writing for a long time.
[00:12:37] But yeah, his name became synonymous after that with that kind of big, high concept, mega blockbuster idea.
[00:12:43] And that kind of book to film then became like a natural, like everything he ever wrote after that became a kind of a big movie, whether it's successful or not.
[00:12:52] But yeah, I think there was a lot of respect between Crichton and Spielberg.
[00:12:56] I think they were hand in hand with realising the vision of the book.
[00:13:00] I mean, it's fun to go back to the book because there's so much in there that isn't in the film.
[00:13:02] And actually, a whole load of cinematic sequences that actually they've never exploited in any of the subsequent Jurassic.
[00:13:08] So missed opportunities in some way or material to go back to.
[00:13:12] There are some scenes from the book that do appear in later films, though, aren't there, as I recall?
[00:13:16] A couple, yeah.
[00:13:16] I think there's that kind of opening scene in Lost World with the child on the beach and a few things.
[00:13:20] But there's still some really kind of maybe kids riding on a triceratops and just stuff that feels very visual, you know, that they didn't use.
[00:13:27] And without jumping ahead, it's just worth noting that the new Jurassic World rebirth has just been announced.
[00:13:32] And Gareth Edwards is due to direct it, or is directing it.
[00:13:37] And for me, I feel like with the subsequent Jurassic Park and world films, just having more dinosaurs, more action,
[00:13:46] just nothing could get away from just the surprise and the excitement of the reveal of the dinosaurs in the first.
[00:13:51] And it has sort of, there have been diminishing returns with the Jurassic, I think.
[00:13:55] And that first one, just, it couldn't be topped in terms of that reveal.
[00:14:08] It's, it's a dinosaur.
[00:14:14] You're dead.
[00:14:15] You're crazy son of a bitch, you're dead.
[00:14:19] You can just tear up the little book on it.
[00:14:21] Cold-bloodedness, it doesn't apply.
[00:14:22] That totally runs.
[00:14:23] It's a warm-bodied creature.
[00:14:25] This thing doesn't live in a swamp.
[00:14:26] This thing's got what, a 25, 27-foot neck?
[00:14:28] A brachiosaur 30.
[00:14:35] We're watching it now.
[00:14:37] What do you think of it?
[00:14:38] Does the CGI stand up for you?
[00:14:41] Are there some shots that you look at now, knowing what you know?
[00:14:45] You can go, I know how they did that.
[00:14:47] I know why they did that.
[00:14:48] This is how I'd do it differently.
[00:14:50] What do you think watching it this time around?
[00:14:52] I think it, for a film that's 30 years old, you know, it's absolutely flawless, really.
[00:14:57] The gallimimus running sequence, you know, I'm sure would look slightly differently now.
[00:15:01] It's worth noting as well that I think you just remember wall-to-wall dinosaurs in it.
[00:15:05] Yeah, there's 15 minutes of on-screen dinosaurs, which is incredible.
[00:15:08] Nine minutes of that are the incredible Stan Winston animatronics, which are just stunning
[00:15:13] and work really effectively and work really well alongside the six minutes of ILM,
[00:15:19] the Industrial Light and Magic CGI animation.
[00:15:20] So that's, you know, 15 minutes screen time.
[00:15:23] I think there's 63 CGI shots, you know, and obviously there's about 2,000 in most films now.
[00:15:28] So going back to it and watching it again for this, I'm just amazed by how much dinosaur action there is
[00:15:36] considering actually the screen time is so low.
[00:15:38] And I think that's just Spielberg is able to kind of, you know, like he did with Jaws,
[00:15:42] hold back and tease with, you know, shaking trees or, you know, the ripple in the water or all of those things.
[00:15:48] But you don't feel underserved by dinosaurs.
[00:15:51] And when you do watch it a little bit cynically, you think, oh, well, the whole kind of electric fence sequence
[00:15:56] is a whole sequence that doesn't need dinosaurs.
[00:15:58] And there are a whole, there's so much that works really well in the film that doesn't involve a dinosaur on screen.
[00:16:03] However, I do feel like that is a very efficient, economic way of using those assets.
[00:16:10] But in answer to your question, I think the CGI is great.
[00:16:13] And I think that the T-Rex, you know, it's all in the dark, it's all at night, it's slightly hidden.
[00:16:17] But that T-Rex emergence and the combination of that giant animatronic Stan Winston physical model that's right there to react to.
[00:16:24] And then when you go full screen and you get the CGI match of that, sort of headshots and so on,
[00:16:30] it just is a beautiful, brilliantly realized sequence.
[00:16:34] And unlike other films of that time where suddenly CGI became quite commonplace,
[00:16:39] I think Jumanji was hot on the heels and had rhinos and monkeys.
[00:16:43] And that feels a bit creaky now and it's harder to watch.
[00:16:47] I feel like you could watch Jurassic Park on a big screen and you're not really noticing any flaws in that.
[00:16:52] It is brilliant.
[00:16:54] All the more surprising that it was actually so much of a risk to do it with CGI.
[00:17:00] You know, there had been lots of tests with stop motion and go motion.
[00:17:04] So Phil Tippett, who did the AT-ATs and did all those amazing kind of, you know,
[00:17:07] physical models and moving them frame by frame.
[00:17:09] That was absolutely the way that they envisioned they would do that.
[00:17:12] And, you know, there's that famous moment, I think, where Spielberg and Kathleen Kennedy kind of look over an animator's shoulder
[00:17:18] that sat there with Dennis Muran and they see a sort of CG sort of test.
[00:17:21] And they're like, oh, hang on.
[00:17:23] And that is the moment that suddenly made CGI a possibility to realise these creatures.
[00:17:29] But it still was no sure thing.
[00:17:30] You know, for such a big movie and production very much underway,
[00:17:33] for that to be the decision and for it to be so nascent, so new, I just think is incredible.
[00:17:39] There's no reason.
[00:17:39] I want the air of the viewport.
[00:17:41] I really do.
[00:17:41] Yeah, don't you see the danger, John, inherent in what you're doing here?
[00:17:47] Genetic power is the most awesome force the planet's ever seen, but you wield it like a kid that's found his dad's gun.
[00:17:52] It's hardly appropriate to start hurling generalisations.
[00:17:55] If I may.
[00:17:56] I'll tell you the problem with the scientific power that you're using here.
[00:18:00] It didn't require any discipline to attain it.
[00:18:04] You know, you read what others had done and you took the next step.
[00:18:07] You didn't earn the knowledge for yourselves, so you don't take any responsibility.
[00:18:11] With the benefit of hindsight, I think it's widely accepted it is a watershed moment in cinema, largely in relation to the CGI.
[00:18:18] I just wondered if you could, with your CG hat on, give us a sense of why that film at that time
[00:18:24] becomes this watershed moment for the use of visual effects in Hollywood.
[00:18:29] You know, I guess it had been leading up to that moment for a little while.
[00:18:32] I think the use of CGI for the abyss.
[00:18:36] So James Cameron had used it for that water tentacle creature in the abyss.
[00:18:40] Terminator 2, which followed a few years later, just before Jurassic Park started to play with this idea.
[00:18:45] But it was still, you know, even though that looked great and was beautifully integrated,
[00:18:48] it was still a sort of reflective, a relatively easy piece of geometry,
[00:18:51] not trying to make something look physically real, you know, real skin and flesh and blood, as it were.
[00:18:57] So it's just that kind of wonderful point in Hollywood history where there was the ambition to do something with that emerging technology.
[00:19:06] This was the perfect project to do it.
[00:19:08] But there was still that kind of knit, that handover between, you know, the kind of physical Phil Tippett approach,
[00:19:13] who then went on to, I think the famous line he said is something like,
[00:19:16] we're out of a job.
[00:19:19] And I think someone said, don't you mean extinct?
[00:19:21] Which was a line that they used in the film.
[00:19:22] But actually Phil Tippett did then go on and advised all the dinosaur motion with all of his expertise on the kind of physics
[00:19:28] and the kind of, you know, the way these animals moved.
[00:19:31] That was all something he was so expert in doing.
[00:19:33] He then just sat next to the animators and kind of applied all of those skills to making them look as real as possible.
[00:19:39] So I think it was that kind of bridging of those two worlds that allowed the dinosaurs to work so effectively in the film.
[00:19:47] But yeah, I mean, there hadn't really been anything quite so effective and it just all happened very quickly.
[00:19:53] And I remember it.
[00:19:53] I mean, many people have said that, you know, it perhaps was not a great thing for Hollywood, you know,
[00:19:58] and maybe the kind of, I think CGI sometimes is a bit of a dirty word.
[00:20:02] You know, it's kind of used perhaps a bit indiscriminately.
[00:20:05] Maybe there is a desire to return to that more physical real sets and real models and real reactions to things that are on set rather than the...
[00:20:15] I think it got to a point maybe in the late 90s with the first of those Star Wars prequels where there was a real backlash against,
[00:20:20] you know, this just doesn't feel there's no weight to these things.
[00:20:22] Everyone's acting against green screen.
[00:20:25] I think there is a pulling back now.
[00:20:27] But so, yeah, whatever Pandora's box or Ark of the Covenant that Jurassic Park kind of opened and unleashed,
[00:20:34] it was amazing.
[00:20:35] But I think there were then a lot of films that followed that perhaps overused or perhaps didn't use as well that kind of technology.
[00:20:44] Where do you sit in that argument then?
[00:20:46] What is the happy medium?
[00:20:48] The happy medium is where it serves the story, you know, perfectly.
[00:20:51] And Jurassic Park really does, you know.
[00:20:52] Those creatures are there, they're used really economically and they are utterly believable.
[00:20:57] And you feel like there's a real...
[00:20:59] Well, it's awe in response to them, which is kind of Spielberg's big awe.
[00:21:02] Or it's the kind of reaction, the terror.
[00:21:04] But they are perfectly used as a storytelling, kind of a part of the storytelling.
[00:21:09] And I've always said, and I'm slightly being pedantic I guess,
[00:21:12] but I've always said my favourite use of visual effects is where you don't really know it's there.
[00:21:16] And like, you know, I love David Fincher's Zodiac and he recreates San Francisco of the late 60s, early 70s immaculately.
[00:21:23] And that's his obsession.
[00:21:24] But, you know, most punters going to see Zodiac would just assume they were real streets.
[00:21:28] And then when you look at the making of it, you're like, wow, you know,
[00:21:30] whole streets from that period recreated and whole parts of the city and, you know,
[00:21:35] CGI taxi cabs that looked perfect for that time.
[00:21:39] And that's where I think it's used brilliantly, you know, where it's kind of, it's just an essential but fairly invisible part of the process.
[00:21:48] Where it's really on show and you've got impossible camera moves through CGI environments and so on.
[00:21:53] I think that's where perhaps it starts to feel, you know, kind of foreground, I suppose.
[00:21:58] How do you make it look seamless?
[00:22:01] Are there, you know, like with the T-Rex, is it the fact that he's mostly at night?
[00:22:07] Does that make it easier for him to look more realistic or to stand the test of time?
[00:22:13] Are there kind of tricks of the trade that you now know that you can go, okay, this is how we do this best?
[00:22:20] Yeah, I mean, foot contact's always difficult.
[00:22:22] So, you know, having the creature kind of foot on the ground and or interacting with real things is always like a special animation shot, you know.
[00:22:30] So there are things you can do to sort of hide some of those areas that are difficult.
[00:22:34] I mean, I think the reason why that worked really well and then it was something that we started to do with Walking with Dinosaurs and its sequels at Framestore was just that combination at that time of real physical models and the CG for the bigger, wider shots and just how they cut together.
[00:22:47] And I think Jurassic Park set that template when you're cutting between the kind of Stan Winston head as it's nudging the kind of the Jeep.
[00:22:53] And then you cut to the wide shot and they are just sort of, you know, immaculately matched.
[00:22:57] I think that is where your brain is tricked into sort of believing the CGI because it's sort of set up nicely.
[00:23:02] And that was something that certainly Walking with Dinosaurs, you know, when that came out in 1999 and then the sequels that I worked on, Walking with Beasts and some of the specials with Nigel Marvin and so on.
[00:23:11] That became quite a, you know, a common parlance that you would have your kind of animatronic heads and claws and you would do the real close up physical mucus and blood and stuff on the physical models.
[00:23:21] It's chewing on grass and you'd have amazing puppeteers out in the field.
[00:23:25] We'd go to all parts of the world, which were kind of, you know, accurate to the prehistory, the time that you were trying to show.
[00:23:30] And, you know, they would be physically there kind of running the trunks or the claws along the ground.
[00:23:35] And then that would match to the CGI plates that you shot.
[00:23:38] And I just think you would believe those kind of jumps between the two if the models matched successfully, which they did because it was like hand in glove.
[00:23:45] So, you know, the animatronic and the CGI kind of teams working closely.
[00:23:50] On the Walking with Dinosaurs front, I do need to just say that Mike Milne, who was the kind of mastermind behind the CGI of Walking with Dinosaurs at Framestore.
[00:23:59] And then Jez Gibson-Harris, who was the brilliant puppeteer and he basically ran Crawley Creatures.
[00:24:06] So the kind of combination of Framestore CGI and Crawley Creatures physical kind of animatronics was why that series and subsequent series was so successful.
[00:24:15] Both of those guys, Mike and Jez, amazing, talented, beautiful people have passed away within the past few months.
[00:24:21] So it's a real loss.
[00:24:23] Just a nod to those two in terms of what they brought to that series that I suppose followed in the footsteps, giant footsteps of Jurassic Park, but went on to do something very different with that and created, you know, the dinosaur documentary.
[00:24:36] But yeah, I was out on location a lot with Jez and the team and I was there to sort of, you know, help get all the plates and the, you know, the references, the chrome balls and the, you know, and distances.
[00:24:48] So I was there to get all of the material on those early shoots to take back to Framestore.
[00:24:53] But obviously in the field, as well as the visual effects team were the kind of the crew with all their boxes of mammoths and dinosaur heads and all of that.
[00:25:01] So for me, who was always a fan of physical side of, you know, kind of movie making and sort of CGI, it was like a dream project to be involved in, in an early stage.
[00:25:10] And as I say, you know, I guess that was one of the big takeaways from Jurassic Park was CGI plus the physical model in the field is going to give you that result and give you the kind of screen time you need.
[00:25:22] This is a world ruled by dinosaurs.
[00:25:33] Giant reptiles like Tyrannosaurus, a five ton predator, stalk the landscape.
[00:25:48] In Walking with Dinosaurs, we will show you how these magnificent creatures live, how they eat, fight and reproduce.
[00:25:59] And you will witness how the forces of nature conspire to drive these animals to extinction.
[00:26:09] Interestingly, as I worked on more of the Walking with Dinosaurs sequels and projects that followed that Impossible Pictures made and did a brilliant run of those, the CGI got better and better.
[00:26:19] And there were less need for animatronic.
[00:26:20] And it's like, oh, we can do that head in CGI now.
[00:26:22] And it's really interesting.
[00:26:23] Even within like five or so years, you could see that the CGI was getting better and the need for animatronic was kind of coming down.
[00:26:30] But it was still and I guess is still a vital part if you really want that kind of dirty, gritty interaction that's very hard to do in CGI.
[00:26:37] So they say that with like the moon landings, the kind of tech power to do that we now have in our pocket on our mobile phones.
[00:26:47] What is the equivalent of Jurassic Park to kind of today?
[00:26:51] Could you do those kind of shots on a laptop or does it still take quite a long time and a lot of processing power to make those kind of shots that they did?
[00:27:02] Yeah, I mean, having worked on various budget levels of CGI creature stuff, obviously, it is a lot easier to do it now.
[00:27:09] You can do it.
[00:27:11] There's a lot more software.
[00:27:12] There's a lot more processing power, as you say.
[00:27:15] You know, it doesn't require the banks and banks of computers.
[00:27:18] I guess as software as well, you need fewer people potentially, though I don't want to, you know, discount the expertise if you're going to do something really well.
[00:27:25] I mean, Walking With Dinosaurs always had, you know, a brilliant modeling team and a rigging team and animators and compositors.
[00:27:31] And you had a string of really talented people that could do all of those parts.
[00:27:35] Undoubtedly now you could build it in Z brush or Z brush and you could rig it and animate it and you could take it from kind of, you know, conception through to, you know, compositing on your laptop.
[00:27:46] But I guess nothing can take away from the fact that having that kind of discrete disciplines and being brilliant at each part of it is still something that was really key to why it looks so amazing.
[00:27:58] And still now a kind of an animator who is just concentrating on making that animation, that behavior, those movements look as believable as possible is still vital skill.
[00:28:07] And same way compositing, you know, so much of how the animals in Jurassic Park and in all the other great films and TV shows that followed is that compositing.
[00:28:16] It's the kind of, and maybe that's the thing with Jurassic Park that's aged a little bit, the optical processes of grading and matching a CGI element to that backplate.
[00:28:27] Sometimes that feels a little off the grade of those if you're really examining it on a big screen or what have you.
[00:28:31] And I guess those compositing tools where you can really match and blend your element as believably as possible has definitely improved.
[00:28:39] There's also like tracking as well.
[00:28:40] I think that was the big decision that Spielberg made that, again, we slightly copied and followed and enhanced and moved forward with on the other dinosaur things that followed.
[00:28:50] Was that I think in Abyss and Terminator 2, they were all locked off shots.
[00:28:56] And I think ILM were like, these dinosaur shots have got to be locked off.
[00:28:58] And I believe Spielberg was very much, no, no, we've got to be moving with them.
[00:29:02] And the famous handheld shot that I think is most effective is the sort of the running with Sam Neill and the kids as they're escaping from that gallimimus kind of run.
[00:29:11] You know, that is a very physical, active shot.
[00:29:14] And I think that then beds the creatures in.
[00:29:16] You really believe that, you know, so camera movement is very helpful.
[00:29:21] Look at the wheeling uniform direction changes, just like a flock of birds evading a predator.
[00:29:27] They're, uh, they're flocking this way.
[00:29:42] And you can cheat that with kind of tiling or there's nothing beats a real kind of camera movement that then the animal is kind of believably integrated into.
[00:29:51] And with Walking With Dinosaurs in those early days of the, of the shows that we were doing there, you know, those tracking shots were still premium.
[00:29:57] You know, they were still hard to do, but there was like a more automated software that could track for you.
[00:30:02] I'm sure with Jurassic Park, it was absolutely painstaking, you know, and, um, and those shots are great, but they probably took a long time to chug through.
[00:30:09] It got easier when we were doing it in the sort of early 2000s.
[00:30:12] But still on location, I'd be out there.
[00:30:15] Okay, what area are we going to cover here?
[00:30:16] And so I'd go and stick little dots on the trees and we'd have, and you know, if it was a big empty area, you'd have canes and sticks with the tracking markers, little dots or crosses all within your 3D area, um, which you'd need to paint out at a later date, obviously.
[00:30:31] But then you could move your camera through it and then the software would recognise those tracking markers and then you could realistically place that animal in that scene as the camera was moving through and get all the lovely parallax.
[00:30:42] But, you know, those are the shots that really sell.
[00:30:45] And I think, I think that Spielberg kind of pushed ILM to have more of those unlocked handheld cameras in there.
[00:30:52] And I think that really helped with selling those creatures really being there.
[00:30:56] And also he's known for his moving shots, isn't he, Spielberg?
[00:30:59] He's known for how he moves the camera during a scene to show how a character's internal or external position is changing.
[00:31:09] I guess it's been parodied quite a lot, hasn't it?
[00:31:10] But he loves his kind of reaction moment.
[00:31:13] And if you play a drinking game on Jurassic Park, you know, every time somebody's face is looking terrified or awestruck, you could probably get quite drunk.
[00:31:20] But that works so well with that big reveal that I think is one of the greatest moments in movie history remains so powerful.
[00:31:28] When you see Sam Neill and the glasses come off and then he turns Laura Dern's head and then you get the reveal as they kind of collapse onto the grass.
[00:31:36] But just their, their reaction just tees up beautifully your own response.
[00:31:42] And his kind of track interface, get reaction, then see what they're looking at is just like, you know, it's simple but brilliantly effective and very Spielberg.
[00:31:50] I mean, you've obviously touched on one there, but what are your, what are your favourite moments from the film?
[00:31:55] Definitely T-Rex Attack is the greatest set piece ever designed.
[00:32:00] And maybe it's the power of trying to come back on.
[00:32:13] What is that?
[00:32:37] Really effective.
[00:32:38] You know, you've got the, the children panicking in one car, the goat goes missing, the guy runs to the toilet, like it's so beautifully blocked and it just builds and builds and builds to the, you know, to the, and then it kind of continues with that kind of fall off the edge and the car in the tree and so on.
[00:32:53] But that's definitely the great set piece, I think.
[00:32:57] It's very funny film watching it again, actually.
[00:32:59] I think there's lots of laughs, great lines in it.
[00:33:00] And Jeff Goldblum's brilliant.
[00:33:02] The bit that made me a little bit watery eyed though, which again is there's no dinosaurs in it at all, but that helicopter arrival to the island, you know, they filmed it in Hawaii and, you know, so it's a brilliantly lush green island.
[00:33:13] And then the helicopter comes in and they're sort of all sat there waiting to be taken.
[00:33:17] But just that moment where, again, just close on his face, Attenborough says, I think it's something like, there it is, you know, and the music sort of rises.
[00:33:25] And it's the first time you hear that very famous kind of magical score.
[00:33:29] And yeah, I was on the train the other day watching it and had to wipe away a little tear.
[00:33:33] It's just an amazing moment and super simple, but just the emotion that Spielberg can make out of those moments of,
[00:33:40] we've seen glimpses, but you haven't seen anything yet.
[00:33:43] But just you have all the anticipation and excitement that those characters do.
[00:33:48] It's just amazing.
[00:33:49] Yeah, he's built it up so that you know those characters, you know what this means to everyone by that point.
[00:33:55] And from there, it's all going to unravel, isn't it?
[00:33:58] That's almost the high point, isn't it?
[00:34:00] From there, it's only going to go downhill and everything.
[00:34:03] But their performances shouldn't be like, everyone is brilliant in it, you know, and it's not, they weren't big stars at the time.
[00:34:08] You know, they deliberately knew that Spielberg and Dinosaurs on the poster was enough to bring an audience.
[00:34:12] But they are amazing and they all went on to do incredible things, but they weren't, it wasn't like a, it wasn't a cruise or Ford or a,
[00:34:19] they were quite lesser known actors, but Dern, Neil, Goldblum, Attenborough, they are all brilliant in it.
[00:34:27] And I think, I was thinking about why you kind of invest in it so much.
[00:34:31] And the paleontologists are so passionate and excited.
[00:34:35] And I just, I believed all the emotions, you know, and I think then when that's delivered, you know,
[00:34:42] and then they react to that, I just, the build, the build through the characters is really, really effective.
[00:34:46] I felt watching it again.
[00:34:48] There was, so there was criticism, I think, thrown at the film, because there's not really any action.
[00:34:54] You've got the first scene where there's some action, then you've got no action for quite a long time until, you know,
[00:35:01] is it 45 minutes in when you start really getting somewhere and seeing some action in a film that's supposed to be a horror, a thriller, really.
[00:35:11] And, but it's building all those characters and building all the backstory so that when everything starts happening and falling apart, you get it.
[00:35:19] You're with them.
[00:35:19] You don't need to pause for anything because you know everything already.
[00:35:22] The world is so believable.
[00:35:23] Everything's been made out for you.
[00:35:23] You know, yeah.
[00:35:24] And, and yeah, there's a lot of detail in that 45 minutes, but you're right.
[00:35:29] You've really invested in them and you, the, the world, the, the hardware, the cars, the, all of the food, you know, no expense has been spared as he constantly says throughout, you know, but you really do believe that world.
[00:35:40] I think the sort of the set building, the art direction, the kind of world building is amazing.
[00:35:44] I mean, he's even caught like, you know, the animation of the DNA.
[00:35:47] It's like, that's exactly how we're done.
[00:35:49] You know, we might animate a DNA in a science show documentary today.
[00:35:53] And he's even caught that right.
[00:35:55] Hasn't he?
[00:35:55] I was going to say, you know, obviously what are the nonfiction learnings from Jurassic Park?
[00:35:59] You know, what's the science and the natural history to be, you know, and obviously science docs, and I've been involved in them.
[00:36:05] And I guess you guys, you know, probably have as well, you know, have tried to recreate dinosaurs and tell the story of the Cretaceous or the Jurassic in a sort of more nonfiction sense.
[00:36:15] But there is also so much there.
[00:36:17] I mean, every helicopter shot you ever use in a science doc is, is thinking about the theme.
[00:36:21] You know, it's like, it's that shot of the helicopter in the Jurassic Park.
[00:36:24] That theme is always in your head.
[00:36:26] And things like Mr. DNA, you know, that kind of really elegant kind of exposition and the animation.
[00:36:32] Absolutely right.
[00:36:33] I would be commissioning a sequence like that to kind of unpack a really complicated idea today.
[00:36:38] You know, in fact, I probably will.
[00:36:40] You know, it's such a lovely style as well that they use.
[00:36:43] What?
[00:36:44] What?
[00:36:45] Oh, Mr. DNA, where did you come from?
[00:36:48] From your blood.
[00:36:50] Just one drop of your blood contains billions of strands of DNA, the building blocks of life.
[00:36:57] A DNA strand like me is a blueprint for building a living thing.
[00:37:02] And sometimes animals that went extinct millions of years ago, like dinosaurs, left their blueprints behind for us to find.
[00:37:11] We just had to know where to look.
[00:37:12] I think it's the, you know, there is a lot of science in Jurassic Park, but the way it's unpacked and the kind of the Mr. DNA device is just very clever.
[00:37:21] And I think in the book, there's a lot of science weaved through it.
[00:37:25] And Crichton's clearly kind of hung up on the sort of DNA and the science behind what they were doing.
[00:37:30] I think Spielberg was less keen to kind of engage in the detail of that and felt he might lose his audience.
[00:37:35] But in that one little two or three minute Mr. DNA sequence, you just get the whole thing, don't you?
[00:37:40] Like, ah, right.
[00:37:41] What's hilarious actually is I think I read that Spielberg and his people went to like some fancy DNA lab.
[00:37:47] And the guy's like, this is my lab.
[00:37:49] And they were like, huh?
[00:37:50] This is really boring.
[00:37:52] There's nothing really here.
[00:37:53] Where's all the tech?
[00:37:54] No, no, no.
[00:37:55] We're not doing this.
[00:37:56] You know, Spielberg's not interested in that.
[00:37:57] And then they made this like super high tech lab for the actual, their technicians in the film to work in.
[00:38:02] So it's really funny how, yeah, he makes it look more high tech than perhaps it was at the time.
[00:38:07] We've all been there making science docs, haven't we?
[00:38:09] Where I think the exec producer kind of imagines that it's, I remember doing something once about aliens and, you know, the kind of setty kind of environment.
[00:38:17] And I think the exec had men in black in my, it was like hundreds of attractive young people listening on their headphones and screens and glass and steel.
[00:38:25] And then the reality was like, you know, upstairs in a mall, a few older guys in sandals mostly.
[00:38:31] There was, you know, but kind of, and there was no headphones.
[00:38:33] It was all just checking back through printouts and just then trying to make that look like men in black.
[00:38:39] It was like, okay, we've got some work to do here.
[00:38:41] All make a virtue out of the fact that most science is kind of, you know, really dedicated people in underfunded.
[00:38:51] But you're right, the Jurassic Park lab definitely looks like the lab that you might wish for as opposed to probably the reality of it.
[00:38:58] And so you've made this jump from CGI into production, editorial, directing, show running.
[00:39:05] Was that jump an easy one?
[00:39:07] Did you see it coming?
[00:39:08] How has that been to kind of work your way through?
[00:39:11] It's a funny route.
[00:39:12] And a lot of people do ask about how I got from A to B to C.
[00:39:16] When I was a kid, you know, all I wanted to do was sort of filmmaking.
[00:39:19] So that was always my kind of end goal.
[00:39:22] But, you know, I took a slightly circuitous, unusual route to what I do now in this kind of executive producer role at the NHU.
[00:39:29] And I was always drawing and really fascinated by films and posters and stuff.
[00:39:33] So I always knew that sort of production was where I wanted to end up, even though the sort of CGI route.
[00:39:37] I want to just throw in a quick, this is not bragging, but I did some work experience at Shepperton Studios.
[00:39:43] It's just this speaks to Jurassic Park.
[00:39:45] And they were filming Chaplin at the time.
[00:39:47] And it was just a real insight into the filmmaking process for a young, I was in my teens.
[00:39:51] I was lucky enough to get into Shepperton Studios.
[00:39:52] We knew somebody who worked as the kind of one of the carpenters or in the art.
[00:39:55] So they were like, come in for a couple of weeks and wander around Shepperton Studios, which I'm sure you couldn't do now.
[00:39:59] And as a movie buff, I was like, oh, great, you know.
[00:40:01] And they were filming Chaplin there at the time.
[00:40:04] So Robert Downey Jr. was kind of in old age makeup.
[00:40:07] And Richard Attenborough, who directed Chaplin, just before he was in Jurassic Park, was on set.
[00:40:13] And I was just a sort of 15-year-old wandering around.
[00:40:16] And I walked or wandered into a bit of set I wasn't allowed to, basically.
[00:40:20] And Richard Attenborough came over and told me off.
[00:40:23] And I was pretty mortified.
[00:40:25] And later on that day, I was kind of on the back watching.
[00:40:29] And he came over and he apologized.
[00:40:31] And he took me by the cheek.
[00:40:32] And he said, I'm sorry, I got across earlier.
[00:40:34] I just didn't want you to hurt yourself or whatever.
[00:40:35] So it was a really lovely moment and a real Attenborough moment.
[00:40:38] And we'll come to David Attenborough a bit later.
[00:40:40] There's a nice little Jurassic Park link there.
[00:40:42] But it blew my mind.
[00:40:44] And that's when I kind of, I suppose, it really solidified that this was real.
[00:40:47] This was something I could actually do rather than just kind of drawing and watching films.
[00:40:50] You know, being on those amazing Victorian sets that they built at Shepperton Studios.
[00:40:55] It was like an extraordinary location.
[00:40:57] It was very dull.
[00:40:58] And as a kid, I was a bit like, all right, movie making isn't quite.
[00:41:01] He was like, OK.
[00:41:02] You know, they wheeled in Robert Downey Jr. again for the Oscars bit.
[00:41:05] And it was like, OK, take 46.
[00:41:07] And I remember thinking, oh, it's not quite so fun on a movie set.
[00:41:10] It looks amazing.
[00:41:11] And I'm sure it's good fun if you're in a kind of key creative role.
[00:41:14] But it's very long hours and very repetitive.
[00:41:16] So that was a little moment of doubt.
[00:41:18] I was thinking, oh, maybe it's not quite as fun as I thought.
[00:41:20] But it nevertheless kind of got my excitement up about the possibility of being in this industry
[00:41:25] and it being a real thing.
[00:41:27] So, yeah, I worked at Framestore, as you said.
[00:41:31] And it was that kind of the Framestore heyday, as you mentioned.
[00:41:34] You know, they were making, you know, the Guinness Surfer commercial, the Jonathan Glaser one,
[00:41:38] which is incredible.
[00:41:39] They were doing James Bond titles.
[00:41:41] They were just starting on the Harry Potter movies.
[00:41:43] They were doing Walking with Dinosaurs.
[00:41:44] So I got so lucky kind of starting my career there.
[00:41:47] And I've still, I met my wife there and I kind of some of my best friends there.
[00:41:50] And so 25 years on, it's, but it was an amazing place to start my career.
[00:41:55] But I suppose I always felt a little bit that it was the sort of end of the creative chain.
[00:42:00] And it is an incredibly creative place.
[00:42:03] But I felt like I always wanted to be more of the originator of ideas and be more editorially
[00:42:08] involved.
[00:42:09] And so I was always looking for that opportunity.
[00:42:11] And Framestore made a film for Animal Planet and Channel 4 called Dragons, a fantasy made
[00:42:17] real.
[00:42:18] And I was the kind of VFX producer on that and went to go to the Canary Islands and a
[00:42:22] whole bunch of places where we filmed the plates for these so-called real dragons.
[00:42:26] And that was for Darlow-Smithson Productions.
[00:42:28] And I just got very friendly with the team there.
[00:42:31] And they were doing things like Into the Universe with Stephen Hawking and Seconds from Disaster.
[00:42:35] And they had a lot of visual effects content.
[00:42:37] And they said, actually, Mike, we could really do with someone like you, with your knowledge
[00:42:41] and your expertise in production.
[00:42:45] So it didn't take much.
[00:42:46] And Framestore were happy for me to continue my career.
[00:42:48] So it didn't take much for me to jump across into production, which I then did.
[00:42:51] And there was a lot going on at Darlow-Smithson.
[00:42:52] And again, that was a heyday for Darlow-Smithson.
[00:42:55] And, you know, I owe John Smithson and those guys a lot.
[00:42:58] But that was an amazing place to start working.
[00:43:00] And they were doing some incredible shows off the back of Touching the Void.
[00:43:03] But a lot of visual effects.
[00:43:05] And so I suppose it was just then even more so starting to move a little bit from being
[00:43:11] the visual effects producer within a production company to then seizing an opportunity to direct
[00:43:16] something myself.
[00:43:17] And so the first thing I directed was Secret Universe, Hidden Life of the Cell, which was
[00:43:21] a BBC doc about viruses inside the body.
[00:43:26] But the ambition was to do something really sci-fi.
[00:43:29] This was meant to be a kind of fully immersive, kind of almost doing for inside the body that
[00:43:34] we did, you know, for dinosaurs, walking with dinosaurs.
[00:43:37] You know, this was a kind of, we want these tiny kind of, you know, molecular creatures,
[00:43:41] as it were, to feel real.
[00:43:43] I'm really proud of that film.
[00:43:45] It's like, you know, it's a very kind of immersive journey inside the body following
[00:43:48] this adenovirus as it's attacked by antibodies and then white blood cells come in, but it still
[00:43:52] unlocks the cell and manages to get in and replicate.
[00:43:55] And so we just tried to make it feel like a science fiction movie.
[00:43:58] So it was my first foray as a producer director telling a story, but CGI was at the heart of
[00:44:05] it.
[00:44:05] But that got me on the ladder.
[00:44:07] And then I suppose my link to the natural history element was Ruth Roberts, who's a
[00:44:12] friend of the podcast, called me and said that Atlantic Productions were making a film
[00:44:17] with David Attenborough called Natural History Museum Alive.
[00:44:20] They wanted it to be really magical, David at night in the museum and creatures coming
[00:44:24] to life.
[00:44:25] And could I come and produce it, be part of the team?
[00:44:28] And I jumped across.
[00:44:30] And from there, that kind of working with David, that then, I then went on to sort of
[00:44:35] series direct the Great Barrier Reef series for BBC One, which had some visual effects,
[00:44:39] but was mostly natural history and science.
[00:44:41] And then I worked on Galapagos with Liz Bonin.
[00:44:44] And I then became someone, I suppose, that could direct or show run and then exec big science
[00:44:51] natural history shows, but where there was usually a kind of a CGI element.
[00:44:56] And I guess that's become my specialism.
[00:44:57] And, you know, it's a sort of fun space to be in.
[00:45:00] Something like Our Universe that I did at BBC Studios Science Unit, I sort of was a producer,
[00:45:04] showrunner on that, for Netflix, almost as the perfect combination of those two things,
[00:45:09] which I'd kind of slowly gotten to over my career.
[00:45:12] We were filming real animals, but it's a story of how all life on Earth is directly related
[00:45:18] to big events that happened over huge amounts of time in the universe.
[00:45:21] The formation of the Earth and the moon and how that leads to seasons directly affects
[00:45:26] the lives of a mother bear waking up with her cubs and their story through the seasons
[00:45:31] or the birth of the sun and how the energy of the sun kind of ripples through the whole
[00:45:37] ecosystem and how that affects the life directly of a cheetah who has to prey on the gazelle,
[00:45:42] who play on the grass that relies on the photosynthesis of the sun.
[00:45:46] So in terms of storytelling, it was a lot of fun, you know, a great team working on that.
[00:45:54] In the lives of every creature on Earth are echoes of events that occurred a long, long time ago.
[00:46:08] Events of unimaginable scale that connect all living things.
[00:46:30] An ambitious kind of story to tell, but that needed these really big photorealistic cosmology scenes
[00:46:37] cut directly and knitting very neatly in with the story of these animals as they approach these kind of,
[00:46:42] you know, turning points in their lives.
[00:46:44] So I would say that that is the full articulation of that very long winded journey to where I've gotten to now,
[00:46:49] but where it's been that sort of slow, interesting steps, fascination and some, you know,
[00:46:55] some background in visual effects, but where I always wanted to be producing, directing,
[00:46:59] telling the story directly and then kind of using those tools to tell the story.
[00:47:04] How many of those tools kind of came from film school,
[00:47:09] came from learning that trade at Framestore versus how much are you learning on the job?
[00:47:15] Because each of those different roles needs a lot of different skills.
[00:47:18] I think it's really interesting to understand how much you kind of learn by doing things.
[00:47:22] How much is intuitive for you? Do you feel like you're quite a natural storyteller?
[00:47:27] It is quite intuitive, I think. I think you've got that kind of creative gene and I think,
[00:47:31] you know what you are, you enjoy doing and you know what you're sort of good at and you kind of find your place there.
[00:47:36] I would say that the Walking with Dinosaurs early days were a brilliant training ground
[00:47:40] because you did go out on location and you were shooting mostly empty plates,
[00:47:45] but you were sat next to him and some brilliant directors on that, Jasper James being one of them,
[00:47:49] but you would sit there and he would be working through the storyboards.
[00:47:52] You'd sit and spend a lot of time waiting for the sun to come out with the DP
[00:47:56] and you'd understand that part of the craft.
[00:47:58] Obviously, you were thinking all the time where I was in that role as the visual effects coordinator.
[00:48:02] Okay, we're going to have to get that bit and we're going to have to get a flash of dust for the footfall
[00:48:06] and we're going to have to get the references here.
[00:48:08] So I was thinking about the storytelling down the road with the creatures and how that would work.
[00:48:13] It was just a very gentle way in.
[00:48:15] And then, you know, when I was at Framestore in those earlier days
[00:48:18] and I was working on a few feature films and sort of bigger dramas,
[00:48:21] you would just spend time on set and just watch all those different roles play out.
[00:48:25] And it was just, yeah, excellent training really.
[00:48:27] And I suppose that's the thing you'd always advise anyone starting out in the industry is,
[00:48:32] you know, make your own stuff and kind of understand it,
[00:48:35] but observing other roles and finding the thing that you think you're good at
[00:48:38] and being aware of all those roles within the kind of production process.
[00:48:42] But with me also, I'm kind of unsure with you guys too,
[00:48:45] just that burning ambition to, oh, I kind of really want to do that.
[00:48:48] And how can I get there?
[00:48:49] I mean, I was comprehensive.
[00:48:51] There weren't any huge opportunities when I was young.
[00:48:54] It was about drive and passion and exploiting those opportunities when they come along.
[00:49:00] And I feel very lucky to have followed that path,
[00:49:02] but it's certainly not working with, you know, a David Attenborough on a series or,
[00:49:06] you know, it's certainly not a traditional natural history kind of route,
[00:49:11] especially in these times, which, you know, it's quite tough in the industry at the moment.
[00:49:15] You know, in many ways, having some versatility and having kind of
[00:49:18] a varied CV and different skill sets, I think is a useful thing to have, you know.
[00:49:23] Yeah, definitely.
[00:49:24] And what I find really interesting is we get the opportunity to speak to lots of wonderful people
[00:49:29] on the show.
[00:49:30] Some people have science, natural history backgrounds.
[00:49:33] Some people don't.
[00:49:33] You don't.
[00:49:34] Is there something actually that about the science and natural history programs that you've ended up making
[00:49:40] do you like the fact that almost you don't have that background?
[00:49:44] Or is there something in there you find fascinating that you think really works well
[00:49:48] for storytelling, the kind of storytelling that you love?
[00:49:51] Yeah, I'm an idiot, basically.
[00:49:53] And I want to understand it.
[00:49:56] And I'm curious.
[00:49:57] I'm doing myself a disservice.
[00:49:58] But I definitely don't have a science background.
[00:50:00] And I think, I hope I held my own.
[00:50:02] But certainly within the science unit, sometimes I felt like, you know,
[00:50:06] everyone else was far more qualified than me.
[00:50:08] And in the natural history unit, you know, there's some incredibly brilliant scientists.
[00:50:12] And they have a lot more experience with, you know, in the natural world than I do.
[00:50:17] I suppose what I always feel is, you know, I'm kind of really interested in subjects.
[00:50:21] And I've become a bit of an expert and slightly obsessive.
[00:50:25] You know, so when I worked on the Space Odyssey series from Possible Pictures,
[00:50:29] you know, I could tell you every planet and moon.
[00:50:31] When I was working on the Dinosaurs series, I was very, and it often goes out of your head,
[00:50:36] as I'm sure you've both had with certain specialist factual subjects.
[00:50:39] But I don't have that background.
[00:50:42] I have a background where I was wanting to be in the creative art, you know,
[00:50:45] creativity was what I was working towards.
[00:50:48] And I guess it would have found its outlet and whatever, you know, opportunity came along,
[00:50:52] whether it was writing or...
[00:50:53] Yeah, I found myself in a sort of a lovely environment where telling science and natural
[00:50:59] history stories in the sort of nonfiction space, there's a real desire to try and do it in a way
[00:51:04] that brings an audience and excites an audience.
[00:51:06] And, you know, that's a real creative challenge, isn't it?
[00:51:09] And it's so important, isn't it?
[00:51:11] I think when we've spoken to people who do have more of a science background,
[00:51:17] it's a TV show, a film, a book, something has got them into that.
[00:51:23] That's ignited that passion.
[00:51:25] And then they've just run with it.
[00:51:27] And that's why I think science TV shows are so important.
[00:51:30] And films that have science elements in it, they're so important because they just foster
[00:51:34] that creativity, that passion from people of all ages, but especially for young people
[00:51:38] to inspire them to get into science that they might feel is not for them,
[00:51:43] or it's just people in lab coats and it's just not.
[00:51:46] So that's what I love is that people from all backgrounds can get into science
[00:51:51] or science communications or whatever.
[00:51:53] And that's what I love about this podcast is we find that more and more science storytelling
[00:51:57] is so important because it inspires the next generation.
[00:52:01] Absolutely.
[00:52:01] And going back to Jurassic Park and Jaws and Spielberg, the number of people that went into
[00:52:06] kids that went into marine biology or paleontology or some of those other areas
[00:52:10] because it fired their imagination.
[00:52:12] And I suppose I am always thinking about what is that twist or turn in the storytelling.
[00:52:18] I mean, a lot of the science and natural history shows that have been featured on this podcast
[00:52:22] are brilliant and really inventive.
[00:52:24] And I guess it's that element that always excites me about the next project.
[00:52:29] It's like, how is this going to be different?
[00:52:31] The Cell film was kind of, how can we make this feel like a kind of science fiction movie that's
[00:52:36] all taking place within your body and that adenovirus is a villain and exploits these kind
[00:52:41] of robot-like, I just, we wanted to make it feel as kind of immersive, as exciting as
[00:52:45] possible.
[00:52:46] And I'm not sure a show about the human body kind of approached it in that way before.
[00:52:50] And obviously it wasn't all in my idea, but I just, it was a really kind of exciting
[00:52:53] way to sort of unpack the world of the adenovirus that obviously became even more relevant with
[00:52:58] the coronavirus that followed.
[00:52:59] And that got quite a lot of repeat viewings because I think it explained it in a very understandable
[00:53:04] way as to how we are constantly exposed to these viruses and how they exploit the body.
[00:53:09] And then something like Natural History Museum Alive, for me, was just really appealing because,
[00:53:12] you know, there was a lot of science in there and a lot of kind of, you know, unpacking,
[00:53:15] David brilliantly unpacking our understanding of the anatomy of these creatures and, you know,
[00:53:20] our scientific understanding of them, but, you know, also why they were kind of key species
[00:53:25] to sort of be fascinated by.
[00:53:26] But it was done in a very magical way.
[00:53:28] It was a very sort of Christmas day kind of show.
[00:53:30] And, you know, there wasn't any real peril, but David was acting brilliantly.
[00:53:34] And, you know, there was a smilodon stalking him.
[00:53:36] And I just, I feel like, again, that was just a different kind of storytelling.
[00:53:40] It had one foot in the night at the museum and one foot in the more traditional blue chip
[00:53:44] landmarks of Attenborough, but it was something different.
[00:53:47] And I think that's what always excites me.
[00:53:48] And our universe was the same.
[00:53:50] How can you, as you say, excite the audience and get them turned on to the science subject
[00:53:54] that you're trying to deliver?
[00:53:56] I think you just need to increasingly be inventive with that, don't you?
[00:53:59] You know, and you're competing with lots of other entertainment at the moment.
[00:54:02] You know, it's a really tough time.
[00:54:04] My kids were watching Wednesday at the time on Netflix, which is a great show,
[00:54:09] but getting them to watch our universe was a real challenge.
[00:54:12] And I think getting younger minds off tick, you know, again,
[00:54:15] I sound like the 48-year-old exec producer that I am,
[00:54:17] but trying to get them kind of engaged with different kinds of content
[00:54:20] and excite them just is a good creative challenge,
[00:54:24] but I think kind of increasingly difficult.
[00:54:26] We are at a bit of a sticky time in the industry, aren't we?
[00:54:29] It is tough.
[00:54:30] There's less money around.
[00:54:32] What can we do?
[00:54:33] Is there hope?
[00:54:35] What's your take on it all?
[00:54:37] I mean, I am seeing, you know, some positive signs.
[00:54:41] It has, I mean, I think there's been such a boom.
[00:54:43] I think there was going to be a backlash against,
[00:54:45] and I suppose, you know, talking about CGI,
[00:54:48] that is an expensive thing to do.
[00:54:50] The Natural History Unit series for Apple, Prehistoric Planet is amazing,
[00:54:55] but it's just a very expensive kind of show.
[00:54:57] And I think, you know, budgets are tighter.
[00:54:59] Audience, you know, there's less risk.
[00:55:02] You know, I think we're finding that across all genres.
[00:55:05] But people are still consuming content,
[00:55:07] and people will find different ways to tell those stories
[00:55:10] and have to be more creative because the budgets are smaller.
[00:55:14] And, you know, I guess CGI doesn't require big, breathing,
[00:55:18] photoreal dinosaurs per se.
[00:55:20] You know, some of my favourite docs are biopics or music docs
[00:55:25] or true crime docs that use, you know,
[00:55:27] really inventive motion photos and graphics.
[00:55:29] And, you know, I feel like there's still sort of visual invention,
[00:55:32] even at the kind of, you know, lower budget end.
[00:55:34] And I think we will find new ways to tell stories.
[00:55:38] And this is just a sort of dip, I hope.
[00:55:42] Us too.
[00:55:45] Can I tell you, indulge me,
[00:55:47] can I tell you the best time I saw Jurassic Park?
[00:55:50] It was on the Great Barrier Reef series.
[00:55:53] So we were on Lizard Island,
[00:55:54] which is a beautiful tropical island,
[00:55:57] with Sir David Attenborough.
[00:55:58] Sadly, his brother had recently died.
[00:56:01] So we had like a movie night most nights.
[00:56:03] I don't know if you know Freddie Clare,
[00:56:04] who was sort of an amazing sound operator,
[00:56:06] doing so much more now.
[00:56:07] But at that time, he was like the absolute go-to for sound.
[00:56:10] Such a lovely, brilliant, talented guy.
[00:56:12] But he would have a little projector that he'd bring with him in his case.
[00:56:17] I mean, we were on a boat most of the time.
[00:56:18] So I don't know how he managed to bring it.
[00:56:19] But he had a projector and then we strung a kind of a screen up.
[00:56:22] And we would sit on the beach and watch a movie most evenings and have a beer and,
[00:56:26] you know, on the sand.
[00:56:27] But he was like, tonight's Jurassic Park.
[00:56:29] And I approached David and I said,
[00:56:31] look, we're going to be playing Jurassic Park tonight.
[00:56:33] And I know, you know,
[00:56:35] and sadly, Richard is, you know, has passed recently.
[00:56:38] And would you be happy for us to do that?
[00:56:39] And he was like, absolutely.
[00:56:40] You know, it was fine.
[00:56:41] But what was really nice was we all sat down,
[00:56:43] probably a bit tired after the day.
[00:56:45] You know, sun was setting.
[00:56:46] The screen was like strung up between the palm trees.
[00:56:49] Jurassic Park started, you know,
[00:56:50] hairs on the back of the neck.
[00:56:52] But David sat down in the back on the sand with everyone else.
[00:56:56] And kind of through the course of the two hour movies,
[00:56:58] it got dark and a few people were like dropping off.
[00:57:00] And, you know, it's kind of the usual kind of at the end of a filming day,
[00:57:04] like the kind of lights went up at the end or the film finished.
[00:57:06] And just I look back and David was still watching it, bright eyed, engaged.
[00:57:11] And I mean, to watch that film in that location with Sir David Attenborough
[00:57:16] was like just such a rare moment.
[00:57:19] So very interesting talking to him about that film,
[00:57:21] because obviously he, you know,
[00:57:22] being kind of part of the production in some ways by, you know,
[00:57:25] through his brother and was kind of aware of it.
[00:57:27] And obviously fascinated with dinosaurs himself
[00:57:29] and had made a series in the 70s about dinosaurs.
[00:57:33] So it's just great to get his insight in that
[00:57:35] and to be part of that experience.
[00:57:40] But this place, I wanted to show them something
[00:57:45] that wasn't an illusion.
[00:57:48] Something that was real.
[00:57:51] Something that I could see.
[00:58:01] I mean, not divide of merit.
[00:58:06] I just wonder if you could just sum up what the film means to you.
[00:58:10] It kind of captures the Spielbergian awe and excitement
[00:58:14] that I think is almost knitted into my DNA
[00:58:17] from my first movie-going experiences, you know.
[00:58:20] And it still fills me with that sense of escapism, I suppose.
[00:58:26] You know, it is one of the ultimate kind of...
[00:58:28] You totally believe the creatures.
[00:58:29] You're absolutely immersed in the story.
[00:58:32] And it was the first time that my mind lit up
[00:58:35] with the possibility of using CGI to create creatures
[00:58:38] that then, you know, kind of influenced the films I saw
[00:58:42] and then ultimately the work I've done afterwards.
[00:58:44] So it definitely was a kind of a sort of a major turning point, really.
[00:58:49] But yeah, watching it now, I don't feel like it's aged
[00:58:52] and I don't feel like it's dated
[00:58:55] and it still feels as awesome and as exciting as it did then,
[00:58:58] which I think is unusual
[00:59:01] because I think even with a lot of the shows
[00:59:02] that credible guests have talked about on this podcast,
[00:59:05] there is the feeling that things are creaky now
[00:59:07] or they're still great, but, you know, I wouldn't do it like that.
[00:59:09] I'm not sure you'd change a thing in Jurassic Park, would you?
[00:59:11] You know, I'm not sure you'd...
[00:59:13] You know, I was actually reading a lot about this when I, you know,
[00:59:15] and it's, oh, Tim Burton was possibly going to direct it
[00:59:17] and, you know, Harrison Ford could have been there.
[00:59:19] You know, there are lots of what-ifs,
[00:59:20] but it is kind of the perfect film.
[00:59:22] You know, it is the perfect blockbuster.
[00:59:24] I can't think of anything better than Jurassic Park.
[00:59:27] And I can't believe if anyone hasn't seen it,
[00:59:30] then, you know, the excitement of watching that for the first time,
[00:59:32] I'm very envious.
[00:59:33] Thank you for giving us an excuse to watch it again.
[00:59:36] Absolutely.
[00:59:37] Thank you for coming in and talking about it.
[00:59:39] My pleasure.
[00:59:39] Follow Whomovethetortoise on x at tortoisepod
[01:00:08] or email us at whomovethetortoise at gmail.com
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