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[00:00:00] Broke a warm up? Anyone?
[00:00:02] We've been talking all day. I'm warm.
[00:00:06] Quiet on set.
[00:00:10] Running up and action.
[00:00:13] All I knew was I wanted to try and understand the way the world works, the natural world.
[00:00:19] We explore because we are human.
[00:00:24] Science is the storytelling of our time.
[00:00:27] So me storytelling has always been the way to leave sorrow.
[00:00:35] Cut!
[00:00:36] Hello and welcome to Who Moved the Tortoise, a podcast about science and wildlife filmmaking.
[00:00:41] I'm Kate Dooley.
[00:00:42] And I'm Alex Hemingway.
[00:00:44] And as usual we're joined by someone from the world of science or wildlife television
[00:00:48] to talk about the film or TV show that inspired them.
[00:00:52] This time we're talking to director of photography Rob Hollingworth.
[00:00:55] As a child Rob loved photography and nature, so perhaps it's no surprise that today he's a cinematographer specialising in the natural world.
[00:01:03] He studied biology at Bath University and there he joined the student newspaper rising to the heady ranks of picture editor.
[00:01:11] It's by learning from the best in the business that he's honed his skills.
[00:01:14] Stage lighting design with Baz Lerman, time lapse photography with legendary natural history filmmaker Tim Shepard
[00:01:21] and music tour stills with James Blunt.
[00:01:24] He shot all kinds of stuff from pure wildlife for Sir David Attenborough to yoghurt commercials.
[00:01:29] He's filmed 1000 metres in the air at the top of the Burj Khalifa
[00:01:33] and 1000 metres under the Pacific in the Galapagos Islands.
[00:01:37] Winning a host of BAFTA cinematography nominations for his technical work
[00:01:41] building complex time lapse and macro motion control rigs himself
[00:01:45] and filming in stereoscopic 3D.
[00:01:48] Rob's choice for the film or series that inspired him is the 2009 BBC Horizon episode
[00:01:55] Can We Make a Star on Earth?
[00:01:57] Sunrise dawned that moment when night becomes day that had immense significance for our ancestors.
[00:02:18] The sun sets the rhythm for life on earth. Each day it returns and the world awakens.
[00:02:28] First of all Rob, let's just get one thing clear. What is a director of photography?
[00:02:32] I think a director of photography is the right hand man or woman to the director.
[00:02:38] It's the person that helps the director realise their vision visually.
[00:02:45] It's an artistic job, it's a technical job. There is a large lighting department,
[00:02:49] there's a large grip department and there's a large camera department
[00:02:52] and those people have to be a bit like I suppose in an orchestra,
[00:02:56] they've all got to know where they're going and they need someone to steer them
[00:03:00] and a director of photography for me is that link between the technical side
[00:03:04] I suppose and the creative side.
[00:03:06] So your choice, I was quite surprised. You picked something relatively recent
[00:03:10] so why this particular film?
[00:03:13] I remember watching this film very clearly with my friend Debbs
[00:03:18] who I met at university and she and I sat down, we obviously studied biology
[00:03:24] we were both geeks so therefore in your 20s what do you do when visiting each other?
[00:03:29] You watch a horizon, that would be a perfectly good night in.
[00:03:34] Both of us were completely struck by it because horizon has always been excellent
[00:03:39] but there's a recipe for making horizon.
[00:03:42] It felt very much that this stuck out from that recipe.
[00:03:51] The Road to Understanding the Sun has been long
[00:04:00] and it all began with a remarkable piece of deduction.
[00:04:04] It was really exciting, it visually grabbed you
[00:04:07] it was approaching the scientific genre from a different angle
[00:04:15] and it really spoke to me visually in a way that I think I could relate to
[00:04:21] even though at that point I wasn't in the industry
[00:04:24] I worked in theatre at that point and I was a photographer
[00:04:27] but I was always itching to get into doing what I was doing now
[00:04:30] and I think that was the first programme I watched where it felt like that chimed with me
[00:04:35] like I could see that speaking to me or me being able to speak to it
[00:04:40] and help and contribute in a way.
[00:04:42] So let me try and put the time scale into some sort of context
[00:04:45] so this is series 45 of Horizon, episode 11
[00:04:50] and according to my count that's episode number 1072 of Horizon
[00:04:57] which is absolutely astonishing.
[00:04:59] That's mad isn't it?
[00:05:01] And it was broadcast on Tuesday the 17th of February 2009
[00:05:06] take us back to that time, what are you doing?
[00:05:09] Who is Rob Hollingworth at this time?
[00:05:11] Dear, like a therapy session.
[00:05:13] So at that time I was just turned 29
[00:05:16] and I was probably quite confused.
[00:05:18] I certainly didn't know where I was going.
[00:05:20] I knew what I was doing
[00:05:22] and I knew that I enjoyed what I was doing
[00:05:24] and I was working in theatre doing lighting
[00:05:26] and I was a photographer.
[00:05:28] Both of those jobs made me very happy
[00:05:30] but they also didn't necessarily represent the future
[00:05:34] in terms of my friends at that point were making big life choices
[00:05:38] they were getting promoted in work and all that
[00:05:40] and I was about to turn 30
[00:05:43] and I just ended a relationship that was from university
[00:05:47] so it was a very unsettling point in my life as well
[00:05:51] so I think that's where the Horizon film was quite inspiring
[00:05:56] because what had never left me from my university times
[00:06:00] was how much I love science
[00:06:02] and that I'm quite a geek.
[00:06:04] I'm an artistic geek, it's really weird.
[00:06:06] I was at university and I used to compose
[00:06:09] under the microscope fluorescent slides
[00:06:12] to do imaging, I would kind of frame them nicely
[00:06:15] and my professor would kind of get
[00:06:18] oh no you're one of those
[00:06:21] because oh no you're one of the creative ones.
[00:06:25] And it's interesting back at that time
[00:06:27] she was saying no no no it's really normal
[00:06:29] to find in science a lot of visually creative
[00:06:32] and artistic people.
[00:06:33] I would have thought they're quite separate things
[00:06:35] but I think potentially there's something that goes with them.
[00:06:37] And what sort of things are you taking pictures of?
[00:06:39] So I was a wedding photographer, did that for quite a while
[00:06:41] and learned a lot doing that, I really enjoyed that
[00:06:43] being an assistant wedding photographer
[00:06:44] then doing something myself.
[00:06:45] It certainly encouraged making decisions quickly
[00:06:48] but you can't do anything twice
[00:06:51] on someone's wedding day so you've got to be reactive.
[00:06:54] I then fell into photographing live bands
[00:06:59] so I used to do a lot of rock and roll photography
[00:07:01] and that I absolutely loved so I would work.
[00:07:03] On the festival circuits around the UK
[00:07:05] I worked for Radio One's Big Weekend many years
[00:07:08] and I would follow artists around the UK on tour
[00:07:12] and photograph their live stage shows.
[00:07:15] You sort of describe yourself as slightly lost at 29
[00:07:18] but actually what you've described is all the ingredients
[00:07:21] are there for what we now know you go into.
[00:07:24] The love of science has been there for a long time.
[00:07:26] You've done a degree in biology,
[00:07:28] you're taking beautiful photographs,
[00:07:31] your lighting scenes in a theatre.
[00:07:33] All of the ingredients are primed and ready
[00:07:35] so is sitting and watching this film kind of a light bulb moment?
[00:07:38] I think it probably was because interestingly
[00:07:40] as a stills photographer, much like probably doing a podcast like this
[00:07:44] you have complete ownership of everything
[00:07:47] but you don't really know that's what it is at the time
[00:07:49] certainly not when I was in my 20s.
[00:07:51] Today as a stills photographer that's the most free...
[00:07:54] that's the most freedom that I have
[00:07:56] because if the picture speaks to you that's all it has to do
[00:07:59] so it's a very cathartic medium
[00:08:02] and I discovered particularly when I was doing the photography of bands
[00:08:05] I discovered my style, my style was very flurry.
[00:08:09] I definitely had a style
[00:08:11] and I don't know where that came from, it just came from sort of me
[00:08:14] and I think when I saw the horizon I was like
[00:08:17] oh right yes
[00:08:20] like if I was let loose with something
[00:08:22] what I might start veering towards
[00:08:25] and I hadn't seen that before.
[00:08:27] Well it was very flurry
[00:08:29] and I felt like it was a music video about science content
[00:08:33] so having watched a horizon it doesn't surprise me at all
[00:08:36] that you had an affinity with it
[00:08:39] because it is basically what you were doing
[00:08:42] music videos and flurry shots
[00:08:45] or the subject that you're passionate about.
[00:08:47] Yeah, yeah I couldn't say that by myself.
[00:08:49] The sun is 93 million miles away
[00:09:02] and yet it can illuminate the surface of the earth
[00:09:06] you can fit a million earths inside
[00:09:10] the surface temperature is 6000 degrees
[00:09:13] at its core it's 15 million degrees
[00:09:16] it loses 4 million tonnes of mass every second
[00:09:21] that mass is turned into energy
[00:09:23] and we feel it as heat.
[00:09:25] It's a really striking opening to that film
[00:09:29] it feels to me like this is a time where science
[00:09:32] and I think Brian Cox is significantly responsible for this
[00:09:35] this is a time where science is becoming mainstream and cool
[00:09:39] and the film opens with Reckoner by Radiohead
[00:09:43] he's driving a red Mustang through the desert
[00:09:46] with a pair of Ray-Bands on
[00:09:48] even though he's already in his 40s at this point
[00:09:51] he looks annoyingly youthful and cool
[00:09:54] and this is the beginning of a science documentary
[00:09:56] about some pretty deep physics
[00:09:58] but it's cool.
[00:09:59] Absolutely science can be sexy.
[00:10:01] You're right that's what it gave us permission
[00:10:03] to realise that actually science is cool
[00:10:05] it really spoke to a whole new audience I think
[00:10:07] it was approaching very complicated principles
[00:10:11] brilliantly.
[00:10:12] Like you know, I don't know
[00:10:13] I remember very very clearly when I watched it
[00:10:15] sitting at the end of a bed in the motel room
[00:10:19] and there's sunlight coming through the window
[00:10:21] they've obviously parked the Mustang out there
[00:10:23] just in the corner shop that was cool
[00:10:25] and then there's just flares everywhere
[00:10:28] and it was now that I've done it
[00:10:32] I've been around the industry
[00:10:34] and you can break that scene down
[00:10:36] and you can see how they did it
[00:10:37] you can tell that they would have done it multiple times over
[00:10:39] and then in the edit they kind of pulled it together
[00:10:41] and made it as to what I feel
[00:10:43] but at the time when you don't know the smoking mirrors
[00:10:46] it's just brilliantly ad hoc
[00:10:49] it feels live
[00:10:52] It feels loose doesn't it?
[00:10:53] It feels loose, feels very loose
[00:10:55] That motel scene I love
[00:10:57] it's really sort of lo-fi
[00:10:58] and kind of grimy in its own way as well
[00:11:01] and it's just playing with a little prism
[00:11:03] and it's a very unassuming and not particularly nice motel room
[00:11:06] and he's playing the light onto the wall
[00:11:08] and it's not glamorous but it looks fantastic
[00:11:11] But it's kind of glamorous in terms of it could be like a rock band
[00:11:14] on the road
[00:11:15] so there's that kind of old school kind of
[00:11:18] 60s rock band onto a glamour to it
[00:11:22] but he's talking about the history of science
[00:11:25] and how light is split up
[00:11:27] and what you can tell of what the sun is made of
[00:11:29] by what you see and don't see
[00:11:31] in the light that it emits
[00:11:33] so it's serious science and history
[00:11:35] done in a really simple way
[00:11:37] but it feels so cool
[00:11:38] An intro brilliantly with humour
[00:11:41] and I think Brian brought to that
[00:11:43] and Gideon allowed some more off-the-cuff humour
[00:11:47] to be coming through
[00:11:48] like he just chucked in that
[00:11:49] well, if you had to go to the sun
[00:11:51] it would take a little while
[00:11:52] and when he got there it'd be a little hot
[00:11:54] It was just beautifully understated dry humour
[00:11:57] and that's what Brian Cox does so well as well
[00:11:59] he is very different kind of presenter
[00:12:01] to all the other many other presenters they've had
[00:12:04] he is just, that is him
[00:12:06] and you see that from his very first horizons
[00:12:09] when he's just a contributor
[00:12:11] and it takes a few years
[00:12:12] and then he's a presenter on them
[00:12:13] because they realise he's so good
[00:12:15] that in his delivery he's so cool and calm
[00:12:19] and human in his funny
[00:12:22] and interesting and charismatic
[00:12:24] and exactly what you want to present to be
[00:12:26] of a serious side subject
[00:12:28] that you can just go
[00:12:29] yeah, I want to go on this journey with you
[00:12:30] let me in the car
[00:12:31] I want to come with you
[00:12:32] and he's good looking as well
[00:12:34] which really helps
[00:12:35] we've done a film with Helen
[00:12:36] where I lent very heavily towards
[00:12:38] Kevin's work in terms of inspiration
[00:12:41] in terms of making Helen look stunning
[00:12:43] like, you know, deliberately making portraits of her
[00:12:46] instead of just having, for example
[00:12:48] in that scenario, having her saying something
[00:12:50] it was like, no, no, let's actually make
[00:12:52] beautiful portraits of her
[00:12:53] much like Kevin did with Brian
[00:12:55] it's like, there are moments here
[00:12:56] let's make some beautiful moving portraits of Brian
[00:12:59] and it really helps when, you know
[00:13:01] Brian is very photogenic
[00:13:02] I just want to rewind a little bit
[00:13:03] you've used the word flair a lot
[00:13:05] we're talking about lens flair
[00:13:06] what is it?
[00:13:07] how do you get it?
[00:13:08] what does it look like?
[00:13:09] what are we talking about, Rob?
[00:13:10] help
[00:13:11] help, lens flair
[00:13:12] so some people hate lens flair
[00:13:15] lens flair is the character of a lens
[00:13:20] it is quite literally light coming down the lens
[00:13:23] and hitting the sensor or the film
[00:13:25] and when the light is in the frame
[00:13:28] it will cause a mistiness and a fogginess
[00:13:32] to the picture
[00:13:34] and every lens is different
[00:13:35] so some lenses flair heavily
[00:13:37] and some lenses don't
[00:13:39] so you might see the flair as in little kind of circles
[00:13:42] or halos of light going diagonally across
[00:13:45] in either green or magenta
[00:13:48] and other lenses you will see a whole mist
[00:13:51] and a fog appearing across the whole picture
[00:13:53] lens flair is entirely organic
[00:13:58] and what I love about it is it happens
[00:14:00] at the time of filming
[00:14:01] and you can't get rid of it
[00:14:03] and you can't make it
[00:14:04] you can't do the same thing twice
[00:14:06] it's a bold stylistic choice
[00:14:08] that you are baking into your shot
[00:14:10] there's no escaping it once you've done it
[00:14:11] and technically speaking
[00:14:12] you're largely talking about
[00:14:14] if you want your shots to be lovely and flurry
[00:14:16] you're pointing your camera at the light source
[00:14:19] in this case this is a film about the sun
[00:14:22] there's an awful lot of shots
[00:14:23] of the camera pointing at the sun
[00:14:24] which for a layman is quite a counter-intuitive
[00:14:26] way of doing things
[00:14:28] I don't know where it comes from
[00:14:29] but you're often taught not to
[00:14:30] never point the camera into the sun
[00:14:32] that's the thing
[00:14:33] whereas my starting point for everything
[00:14:34] is pointing the camera into the sun
[00:14:36] just like if in doubt
[00:14:37] just do that
[00:14:38] because it looks nice
[00:14:39] because you like flair
[00:14:40] because it's confusing
[00:14:41] well no you don't even
[00:14:42] you can point the camera into the sun
[00:14:43] and not have any flair
[00:14:45] either because the sun's too high
[00:14:47] or because your lens doesn't
[00:14:49] there are many many lenses now
[00:14:52] that you could point the
[00:14:54] directly at the sun
[00:14:55] and you will not see a single bit of flair
[00:14:57] it'll be an absolutely brilliant
[00:14:58] high contrast, high saturated
[00:15:00] technically good picture
[00:15:01] even though the sun is barreling down
[00:15:03] the front of the lens
[00:15:04] the older lenses
[00:15:06] which is certainly the ones I prefer to go to
[00:15:08] don't do that
[00:15:10] they have an atmosphere to them
[00:15:12] and they have a character to them
[00:15:13] and for me I talk about character a lot
[00:15:15] I think because it's hugely important to me
[00:15:17] like you pick a lens for a reason
[00:15:19] a very clear reason
[00:15:20] that it's not an accident
[00:15:21] and for me a lot of that is about
[00:15:23] how that lens is going to interpret the light
[00:15:25] when it looks at it
[00:15:26] and you can have too much flair
[00:15:28] and as soon as it starts detracting from
[00:15:31] the story then you've got a problem
[00:15:34] although in this film
[00:15:35] it is all about the sun
[00:15:36] as you say the sun is a character
[00:15:38] the sun is almost another presenter
[00:15:40] in this film
[00:15:41] because every scene kind of starts
[00:15:43] and almost ends with the sun
[00:15:45] and the whole film ends in darkness
[00:15:47] after sunset
[00:15:48] that's the end of the sun
[00:15:50] and the end of the film
[00:15:51] when I think of Brian Cox
[00:15:53] I think of him stood against the sun
[00:15:56] on a mountain
[00:15:58] holding some rocks
[00:16:00] with some lens flair
[00:16:01] I mean that's a really powerful image
[00:16:03] this is setting a very powerful visual
[00:16:07] what's the word
[00:16:08] like a...
[00:16:09] a robust stamping of visual style
[00:16:11] on a person
[00:16:12] yeah and I think it's also capturing something
[00:16:15] in and of its time
[00:16:17] when you're shooting something like that
[00:16:18] and when you're particularly being that strong
[00:16:20] with your style
[00:16:21] it's not something you can undo later on
[00:16:23] so you're very much going out on the road
[00:16:25] as a small little team of people
[00:16:27] like a rock band that Brian was in
[00:16:29] and you're kind of jamming together
[00:16:32] and you're coming away with something
[00:16:34] and that is not then going to be changed
[00:16:37] like you've committed to something
[00:16:39] and I think that's
[00:16:40] I think that's some of the best photography and films
[00:16:43] that I've seen is when that's what's happened
[00:16:46] and you either like it or you don't
[00:16:48] whereas I think if you try and be all things
[00:16:49] to all men all the time
[00:16:50] you might as well just go on a...
[00:16:53] I don't know, on a stock library
[00:16:54] and download some generic material
[00:16:57] and cut it together
[00:16:58] and I think actually going back to
[00:16:59] what's the director of photography role
[00:17:01] I think that's a key part of the role
[00:17:03] is establishing that style
[00:17:05] it's like what are we doing
[00:17:07] how are we telling the story
[00:17:09] because you literally can make a film
[00:17:11] by getting archived together
[00:17:13] and then writing a script around it
[00:17:15] but all of those shots are just going to be generic
[00:17:17] they're not going to have a feel to them
[00:17:19] so to actually set out
[00:17:21] to create a visual identity
[00:17:26] around the story
[00:17:28] that's a one-off choice
[00:17:30] And is that then what you love about
[00:17:32] your job as well is that you get to do that
[00:17:34] so you and Alex have gone away
[00:17:36] and made a film with Helen Chertsky
[00:17:38] and was that the feeling you had
[00:17:40] you are people who went away
[00:17:42] had a lovely time and made a thing
[00:17:44] that was glorious and you made it there and then
[00:17:47] I certainly felt like that
[00:17:49] I think that's more a virtue of
[00:17:52] those specific films which were for BBC4
[00:17:55] which were notoriously
[00:17:58] in the wider context of this type of filmmaking
[00:18:00] low budget
[00:18:02] but the trade-off was you were given
[00:18:05] almost complete creative freedom to
[00:18:08] I remember the absolutely lovely executive producer
[00:18:11] up at BBC Scotland
[00:18:13] Jackie Smith taking me to one side
[00:18:15] the day before going away and saying
[00:18:17] I just want you to go away and have a brilliant time
[00:18:20] and tell some great stories
[00:18:22] so you're leaving the building with all your kit
[00:18:24] and heading to the airport with the licence
[00:18:26] to be creative and enjoy yourself
[00:18:28] Whenever I describe those films that we made
[00:18:30] with Helen, I basically
[00:18:32] describe them as going on a road trip
[00:18:34] with some friends and making a film along the way
[00:18:36] and I think the other thing to say
[00:18:38] and to answer your point Kate is that we
[00:18:40] up to a point we were making it up as we went along
[00:18:42] not in a slap-dash way
[00:18:44] but actually there is a classic example
[00:18:46] which I'm sure you remember
[00:18:48] and weirdly connects to the Brian Cox film
[00:18:50] we're talking about
[00:18:52] we did a similar prism light scene
[00:18:54] at the Big Bear Solar Observatory
[00:18:56] in California
[00:18:58] we gathered the light from a solar telescope
[00:19:00] a giant solar telescope on the edge of a lake
[00:19:02] and Helen stood at the other end of it
[00:19:04] with a little prism and split that light
[00:19:06] and what we, of course
[00:19:08] having no budget
[00:19:10] there's no time to recce that in advance
[00:19:12] we had in our head an idea of what that might look like
[00:19:14] but when we got there
[00:19:16] there was no way we could do it the way we thought
[00:19:18] and in the end, I'm pretty sure it was Rob
[00:19:20] came up with the ingenious idea of
[00:19:22] finally misting some water
[00:19:24] and letting the sunlight play through
[00:19:26] this mist of water
[00:19:28] with Helen in the background of it
[00:19:30] so Helen is addressing the camera
[00:19:32] her face pretty much full frame holding a prism
[00:19:34] and there's this wonderful cascade
[00:19:36] of coloured light through it
[00:19:38] so that was something made upon the spot
[00:19:40] and looked fantastic
[00:19:42] and we got a whole load of credit for when we got back
[00:19:44] it's reacting to
[00:19:46] the circumstances that present themselves
[00:19:48] when you're in a given place
[00:19:50] that could probably only have happened just by serendipity
[00:19:52] I think it's about
[00:19:54] planning and then being able to improvise
[00:19:56] around the planning so you had
[00:19:58] planned, you had written a script
[00:20:00] and that's where
[00:20:02] I think the magic happens
[00:20:04] and so you're musical
[00:20:06] Alex, which would I envy you enormously
[00:20:08] I'm totally, totally
[00:20:10] devoid of any musical skill at all
[00:20:12] it's really upset me probably upset my parents as well
[00:20:14] because I know that we had lots of
[00:20:16] music lessons and I was terrible at that
[00:20:20] but I think the
[00:20:22] musical now that I do
[00:20:24] filming, particularly with the presenter
[00:20:26] I love working with presenters
[00:20:28] it feels musical, it feels like
[00:20:30] you're creating something
[00:20:32] but instead of being audible it's visual
[00:20:34] I love pieces to camera
[00:20:36] I absolutely love them because it's a dance
[00:20:38] between
[00:20:40] the camera and the presenter
[00:20:42] and particularly when you're on the shoulder
[00:20:44] if you've got a really good relationship
[00:20:46] with the presenter there is a like
[00:20:48] a weird fizzing chemistry thing that goes
[00:20:50] on and you're reacting
[00:20:52] by moving with each other
[00:20:54] you're improvising around
[00:20:56] the music
[00:20:58] I suppose, the words and that's where Flair
[00:21:00] I think is really important because you can use Flair
[00:21:02] so much in that environment
[00:21:04] that you are playing with it
[00:21:06] and it's a one-off because the sun's moving
[00:21:08] or what have you so when you do
[00:21:10] the first take
[00:21:12] you'll kind of rock a couple of inches
[00:21:14] left and you'll catch a tiny bit of Flair
[00:21:16] just as she says a word or the presenter
[00:21:18] just as a word and that kind of feels nice
[00:21:20] then white feels nice, just feels nice
[00:21:22] you go with it and then you'll go to the second take
[00:21:24] and the sun's moving, it doesn't quite work
[00:21:26] the magic's gone, that little bit of Flair's gone
[00:21:28] or something's not quite right
[00:21:30] Oh absolutely, there's one that always brings to mind
[00:21:32] and we speak about it from time to time
[00:21:34] is filming in with Helen in Iceland
[00:21:36] and we ended up for some
[00:21:38] slightly mad idea walking into the
[00:21:40] plume of a geezer but the piece the camera
[00:21:42] was walking through it
[00:21:44] and literally walking into it
[00:21:46] and you in tow
[00:21:48] with a sound recordist in tow
[00:21:50] getting completely obliterated
[00:21:52] with these blasts of water
[00:21:54] and you don't know what you're going to get
[00:21:56] and it's chaotic and it's ridiculous
[00:21:58] and it was a stupid idea but the end result
[00:22:00] is fantastic and it's like a four-people-in-a-band
[00:22:02] improvising, that's what it feels like
[00:22:04] I have one more quick thing to say about
[00:22:06] the Big Bear Observatory shoot
[00:22:08] I also remember you really trying to push
[00:22:10] the creativity that day to another level
[00:22:12] by leaving the camera in the hotel
[00:22:14] and
[00:22:16] yeah, it's not the first time I've done that
[00:22:18] Hi Alex and I also
[00:22:20] were very lucky
[00:22:22] to be on an American Air Force base
[00:22:24] with the
[00:22:26] Stratospheric Observatory for Infrared Astronomy
[00:22:28] A childhood dream, absolutely amazing
[00:22:30] we got to the other side of the airbase
[00:22:32] you go through all the security process
[00:22:34] and had a briefing that lasted
[00:22:36] was it a day or two days of
[00:22:38] security? Two days I think
[00:22:40] Two days of training in case the aircraft crashed
[00:22:42] Anyway, we've got all of that
[00:22:44] got the other side of the airbase
[00:22:46] all very exciting, jets everywhere
[00:22:48] oh my god it's amazing
[00:22:50] I turn to Alex, the director
[00:22:52] and go, Alex do you happen to have the camera with you?
[00:22:54] Alex turns to me
[00:22:56] and goes
[00:22:58] no traditionally I find that's your job
[00:23:02] which point I realise
[00:23:04] I've got absolutely everything
[00:23:06] apart from the camera which I'd left
[00:23:08] by the coffee machine somewhere
[00:23:10] on an American Air Force base
[00:23:12] Probably about to be blown up
[00:23:14] in some sort of controlled explosion
[00:23:16] Shall we get back to the film in hand?
[00:23:20] Imagine, I took a dollar bill
[00:23:22] it's about a gram
[00:23:24] and converted that into pure energy
[00:23:26] that
[00:23:28] is the mass loss in a hydrogen bomb
[00:23:30] so there's one
[00:23:32] hydrogen bomb's worth of energy
[00:23:34] in every dollar bill
[00:23:36] I'm a biologist
[00:23:38] Rob, you're a biologist
[00:23:40] I'm an engineer
[00:23:42] but you did physics and maths as well
[00:23:44] I mean this is pretty lofty science
[00:23:46] pretty high concept stuff
[00:23:48] You wouldn't automatically think it's going to be interesting
[00:23:50] to everyone?
[00:23:52] No, but I think that's where
[00:23:54] Brian is fantastic
[00:23:56] because he just draws you in
[00:23:58] and he's a wonderful
[00:24:00] communicator of these big ideas
[00:24:02] Where do we all stand on
[00:24:04] on Brian Cox?
[00:24:06] I love Brian
[00:24:08] He's able to make you as
[00:24:10] passionate and as excited
[00:24:12] as he is
[00:24:14] He's an infectious communicator
[00:24:16] of incredibly
[00:24:18] detailed subjects that initially
[00:24:20] are quite scary
[00:24:22] and intimidating probably
[00:24:24] because they're complicated
[00:24:26] but he kind of makes them incredibly simple
[00:24:28] just with a salt cellar and a peppercorn during
[00:24:30] His enthusiasm is quite childlike
[00:24:32] and I don't mean that in a negative way
[00:24:34] it's sort of unburdened by
[00:24:36] worrying too much about the bigger picture
[00:24:38] of it, it's a childlike wonderment
[00:24:40] at these huge ideas
[00:24:42] He uses very normal language
[00:24:44] and he calls things beautiful
[00:24:46] He's quite lyrical with it
[00:24:48] He's a bit of a poet about it
[00:24:50] Again it's this kind of rock star feeling
[00:24:52] Can I ask you both a question?
[00:24:54] I like to bang on regularly as you know
[00:24:56] about being a proud northerner
[00:24:58] Both Brian and I are from the same place
[00:25:00] We were born in the Oldham
[00:25:02] in what was Lancashire
[00:25:04] when we were born there and is now Greater Manchester
[00:25:06] I find it quite powerful
[00:25:08] and quite important actually
[00:25:10] for somebody of his
[00:25:12] stature and somebody of his
[00:25:14] knowledge and understanding of the natural world
[00:25:16] and of the universe
[00:25:18] to be speaking in a
[00:25:20] very broad regional accent
[00:25:22] and a regional accent that I identify
[00:25:24] very strongly with
[00:25:26] And I just wonder
[00:25:28] what you are
[00:25:30] What do you actually
[00:25:32] seriously, it is a serious question
[00:25:34] I just wonder what you make of that
[00:25:36] I suppose I am used to perhaps
[00:25:38] and I went to university
[00:25:40] I studied biology, I'm used to academics
[00:25:42] being maybe a clipped
[00:25:44] RP accent here or there
[00:25:46] and Brian does not fit that type
[00:25:48] at all, he's youthful
[00:25:50] he's good looking, he used to be in
[00:25:52] quite a famous band
[00:25:54] He's from the north
[00:25:56] and he's been touched through so many different
[00:25:58] versions of moulds of academia
[00:26:00] Yeah it's brilliant
[00:26:02] because you have to be able to see
[00:26:04] yourself on screen to be able to go
[00:26:06] oh I could do that, I could be a
[00:26:08] physicist
[00:26:10] I think we're all aware of how
[00:26:12] appallingly undiverse our industry has been
[00:26:14] and continues to be
[00:26:16] but seeing yourself represented on screen
[00:26:18] whether for me it is a
[00:26:20] regional northern accent
[00:26:22] these things are really important
[00:26:24] and recognised
[00:26:26] It's fresh and different which I think
[00:26:28] helps get hold of a new audience
[00:26:30] Which was great for horizon at that time
[00:26:32] wanting to bring in bigger audiences
[00:26:34] making science look sexy
[00:26:36] and it succeeded, in 2012
[00:26:38] there was a 36.1% increase
[00:26:40] in the number of students doing GCSE
[00:26:42] science exams compared with the previous
[00:26:44] year and this is
[00:26:46] all part of the Brian Cox effect
[00:26:48] I mean it has to be, I mean science was rock and roll
[00:26:50] at that time
[00:26:52] but it's all now to me
[00:26:54] because there aren't many science
[00:26:56] programmes being made
[00:26:58] maybe we can help it come back with a podcast
[00:27:00] Absolutely
[00:27:02] Do we know who first gave Brian that role
[00:27:04] As far as I'm aware
[00:27:06] actually this is the tail end of
[00:27:08] Brian Cox's horizons, by this point
[00:27:10] his sixth and final horizon
[00:27:12] before he then obviously goes off and does his own big huge series
[00:27:14] It's interesting we live in a country
[00:27:16] where we have a national broadcast
[00:27:18] like the BBC that can do something
[00:27:20] unbelievably niche
[00:27:22] like
[00:27:24] get a physics presenter
[00:27:26] that's a little bit out of the mould
[00:27:28] and that the effect of that
[00:27:30] could be to drastically
[00:27:32] increase the higher education
[00:27:34] uptake in
[00:27:36] science and engineering
[00:27:38] That's incredible
[00:27:40] But that is the original role of the BBC
[00:27:42] and that's what programmes like horizon
[00:27:44] could do
[00:27:46] and that's why they were brilliant
[00:27:48] and they were able to create
[00:27:50] new directors and new presenters
[00:27:52] to be launched and to move up through the ranks
[00:27:54] and learn their craft
[00:27:56] and it's a shame that not so many are made today
[00:27:58] and it's harder to
[00:28:00] then do that jump from
[00:28:02] AP assistant producer
[00:28:04] to producer director
[00:28:06] and to get those first few films under your belt
[00:28:08] and be allowed to be creative
[00:28:10] and do what you want to do
[00:28:12] which is what horizon was at that point
[00:28:14] and why perhaps
[00:28:16] it was not so much to launch in the way it did
[00:28:18] and the effect he had
[00:28:20] but also the producers, directors
[00:28:22] and APs that worked with him
[00:28:24] and they could create this unique style
[00:28:26] No other channel would have done it
[00:28:28] No other channel would have put Brian Cox
[00:28:30] fronting at these kind of shows
[00:28:32] Most of the channels wouldn't have been making these kind of shows at all
[00:28:34] and we've already spoken
[00:28:36] about horizon on this podcast before
[00:28:38] It's very sad that they can't make as many of them as they used to
[00:28:40] It could be me
[00:28:42] but it feels that we're also playing things a lot
[00:28:44] safer now
[00:28:46] It feels like there's less risks being taken creatively
[00:28:48] actually
[00:28:50] But that's across the board though isn't it
[00:28:52] That's whether it's huge Hollywood films are
[00:28:54] you know, there's so many reboots
[00:28:56] so many you know sequels
[00:28:58] etc
[00:29:00] Even at the very kind of upper echelons
[00:29:02] of Hollywood filmmaking
[00:29:04] there are no risks being taken
[00:29:06] No one's taking any risks
[00:29:08] Yes, there's less money and less risk taking
[00:29:10] Well this is the place
[00:29:12] where the nuclear age began
[00:29:14] the Trinity site
[00:29:16] where the world's first nuclear bomb
[00:29:18] was exploded
[00:29:20] July 16th 1945
[00:29:22] to where the power of the nucleus
[00:29:24] was unlocked
[00:29:32] So this was directed by Gideon Bradshaw
[00:29:34] who is a lovely director that I worked with
[00:29:36] many many years ago
[00:29:38] and shot by Kev White
[00:29:40] who is a name I know very well
[00:29:42] I don't think I've ever worked with him
[00:29:44] Have I? No, I wish I had
[00:29:46] No, I never met him
[00:29:48] but again I know his work
[00:29:50] very well because he's
[00:29:52] I've really really admired
[00:29:54] his work all of my career
[00:29:56] So he's done
[00:29:58] a lot of horizons
[00:30:00] and BBC factual work
[00:30:02] Wonders of the Universe, Wonders of Life
[00:30:04] One strange rock he did
[00:30:06] which is the Will Smith, Newtopia
[00:30:08] huge budget extravaganza
[00:30:10] for Nat Geo
[00:30:12] National Geographic, sorry
[00:30:14] looking at his website and what I loved
[00:30:16] he says he has an organic and free flowing visual style
[00:30:18] which I think you can definitely see
[00:30:20] in this film
[00:30:22] Definitely and it actually does remind me of your style
[00:30:24] Yeah and it happens in music as well
[00:30:26] You're not copying
[00:30:28] but it's someone that has the same sort of
[00:30:30] feelings
[00:30:32] they look at life the same way
[00:30:34] It's funny isn't it?
[00:30:36] because there's someone I've never even met
[00:30:38] but yet I imagine I would really like him
[00:30:40] based purely on his work
[00:30:42] there's a commonality there
[00:30:44] in that we both see the world
[00:30:46] in similar ways
[00:30:48] It's a very emotional thing isn't it?
[00:30:50] You were talking earlier about how camera work can be very technical
[00:30:52] but actually what you're
[00:30:54] producing, what you're creating is very emotional
[00:30:56] Yes
[00:30:58] How do you balance the two?
[00:31:00] I have no idea
[00:31:02] It's funny you're just going entirely working on instinct
[00:31:04] because the one thing I've never been taught
[00:31:06] how to do ever is my job
[00:31:08] and there was
[00:31:10] whenever sat me down I went that's a good picture
[00:31:12] that's a bad picture
[00:31:14] But I think that's where the director
[00:31:16] D.O.P relationship comes in
[00:31:18] because I'm sure Rob you could go out
[00:31:20] and make a very nice film on your own
[00:31:22] but perhaps you might
[00:31:24] get drawn down little cul-de-sacs
[00:31:26] along the way or distracted by certain
[00:31:28] little things and I think that's where the director's job is
[00:31:30] to make sure the work
[00:31:32] gets done, make sure the pages are shot
[00:31:34] and make sure that the story is told
[00:31:36] and that symbiotic relationship
[00:31:38] that is the key to the whole thing isn't it?
[00:31:40] Yeah absolutely bang on
[00:31:42] When Simon DeGlanville, director of photography
[00:31:44] always talks about flow
[00:31:46] It's when you're in a state often behind
[00:31:48] a camera when you are operating a camera
[00:31:50] you get in that state of flow
[00:31:52] where time suddenly vanishes
[00:31:54] you have no idea
[00:31:56] what is a second or an hour
[00:31:58] and that is a hypnotic
[00:32:00] and glorious place to be
[00:32:02] and you seemingly do your best work
[00:32:04] when you're just flowing
[00:32:06] and allowing yourself to kind of
[00:32:08] just go with the emotion
[00:32:10] Downside is added as you said
[00:32:12] you go down a dead end for like three hours
[00:32:14] and realise you've shot
[00:32:16] that exact same thing
[00:32:18] 45,000 times
[00:32:20] and you only need one shot
[00:32:22] so that's a waste of time
[00:32:24] There is a bigger picture
[00:32:26] and that's what the director is there
[00:32:28] to sort of steer
[00:32:30] towards
[00:32:32] Currently the world spends
[00:32:36] only £1 billion a year
[00:32:38] on the problem
[00:32:40] In the UK we spent more money
[00:32:42] on ringtones last year
[00:32:44] than we contributed to the global
[00:32:46] fusion effort
[00:32:48] You've got to ask yourself
[00:32:50] whether our civilisation has got its priorities right
[00:32:56] So, I
[00:32:58] have the weird distinction of
[00:33:00] having technically worked on two different
[00:33:02] Brian Cox projects
[00:33:04] and yet have never met the man
[00:33:06] because all the bits I did were involved
[00:33:08] with other people
[00:33:10] But you have worked with Brian, haven't you Rob?
[00:33:12] It was fantastic
[00:33:14] We were forces of nature
[00:33:16] I think it was
[00:33:18] So having always sort of
[00:33:20] desperately looked up to him
[00:33:22] in terms of particularly starting
[00:33:24] with that film
[00:33:26] then suddenly beyond set
[00:33:28] I felt like I was massively undeserving of being there
[00:33:30] but it was enormous fun
[00:33:32] and Paul's another director of photography
[00:33:34] Similar free flowing style
[00:33:36] Yeah, very stylish
[00:33:38] film work
[00:33:40] You've fainted your hats or
[00:33:42] the work
[00:33:44] OK, what's Brian Cox like to work with?
[00:33:46] What was your experience like working with him
[00:33:48] and what's he like?
[00:33:50] Brian's great! It was quick, efficient
[00:33:52] did pieces to camera kind of once
[00:33:54] and did them well
[00:33:56] We did a lot of technical work as well
[00:33:58] we did multi-par shots
[00:34:00] so that was a little bit trickier
[00:34:03] just because we did a piece to camera where
[00:34:05] Brian had to walk
[00:34:07] through the tidal range
[00:34:09] as the tide came in
[00:34:11] So that would have been over a four hour period
[00:34:14] so it would be a case of doing the shots several times over
[00:34:17] with motion control
[00:34:19] What do you mean when you say with motion control?
[00:34:21] So the camera moves in the same way each time
[00:34:23] what are you talking about?
[00:34:25] The camera did the same move multiple times
[00:34:27] OK, so it's on a bit of technical stuff
[00:34:30] that moves it from point A to point B
[00:34:33] automatically you program in that movement
[00:34:35] Yeah, there's a motion control
[00:34:37] track, a railway line
[00:34:39] and the camera will
[00:34:41] repeat its move whenever it's asked to do so
[00:34:44] So we would time the piece to camera
[00:34:46] in a rehearsal
[00:34:48] and then we could do it with Brian
[00:34:50] and then we could do it without Brian
[00:34:52] and then we can layer those shots together
[00:34:54] I mean, was it a natural move for you to get into
[00:34:57] motion control and building your own?
[00:34:59] How did that come about?
[00:35:00] Like I started in TV
[00:35:03] leaning heavily on my stills background
[00:35:05] and leaning heavily on my, I suppose, my theatre background really
[00:35:08] So then I worked with Tim Shepard for a long time
[00:35:12] and time lapses based on stills cameras
[00:35:15] so it's the same principles
[00:35:18] and that was sort of my routine
[00:35:20] So the idea of then kind of becoming
[00:35:24] an operator with a camera on your shoulder
[00:35:26] and working with the presenters
[00:35:28] is very, very different indeed
[00:35:29] And as much as I love the technical aspect
[00:35:32] of the filmmaking which is the specialist photography
[00:35:35] is very technical
[00:35:37] I kind of knew that I wanted to go
[00:35:39] and do some storytelling stuff
[00:35:41] which is kind of having presenters around
[00:35:45] Plus the presenters are the access
[00:35:47] to the cool places as well
[00:35:49] Lots of great access
[00:35:51] lots of interesting places wherever the presenters go
[00:35:53] And that this film did that
[00:35:55] you felt like it was special access, didn't you?
[00:35:57] And that's where I guess science films
[00:35:59] can be cool and exciting
[00:36:01] is you kind of look behind the scenes
[00:36:03] of these places that you would never be able to see
[00:36:06] ordinarily
[00:36:07] Places that look really cool, really big, really shiny
[00:36:09] doing really cool amazing, crazy science
[00:36:12] Yeah, some of the most amazing experiences of my life
[00:36:15] have been thanks to this job
[00:36:16] and thanks to science
[00:36:18] It's extraordinary the access we've had
[00:36:20] I'm just going to put you on the spot
[00:36:22] and ask you both
[00:36:23] what's the greatest single bit of access
[00:36:26] or most exciting bit of access you've ever got
[00:36:28] That's easy for me
[00:36:30] filming the launch
[00:36:32] to the International Space Station
[00:36:34] of Sunita Williams
[00:36:35] and the other astronauts who were with her
[00:36:37] in Kazakhstan
[00:36:38] the Russian base
[00:36:40] the bit of Kazakhstan that Russia leases basically
[00:36:42] where their space base is
[00:36:44] which the same launch pad that Yuri Gigarin
[00:36:46] went up into space to be the first man in space
[00:36:50] and it was amazing seeing the launch
[00:36:53] and you kind of see it
[00:36:55] but you feel it
[00:36:57] you feel the sound, the vibrations of it
[00:36:59] in you, vibrating you
[00:37:01] and you're over a kilometer away
[00:37:04] and that, the power of it is immense
[00:37:06] I've filmed an RS-25 engine test
[00:37:09] but just one engine
[00:37:11] and that was incredible
[00:37:12] but I can imagine
[00:37:13] when there's a few of them going
[00:37:15] and it takes on another level entirely
[00:37:17] Rob, what's yours?
[00:37:19] Beat that!
[00:37:20] You probably can easily
[00:37:21] I don't think I can beat that
[00:37:22] That's absolutely incredible
[00:37:23] I love NASA
[00:37:27] I think probably the best bit of access
[00:37:29] was the Burj Khalifa
[00:37:32] and dangling off the top of it
[00:37:34] every day for about 10 days
[00:37:38] I was on it when it was being built
[00:37:40] and it's weird being that high
[00:37:42] and not being in a plane
[00:37:44] it's nuts!
[00:37:45] It's absolutely insane
[00:37:46] I had to climb it every day
[00:37:48] for about 10 days
[00:37:49] You were very fit or exhausted
[00:37:51] or both after?
[00:37:52] We were on ropes for the last third of the building
[00:37:55] ropes and ladders
[00:37:57] Are you scared of heights?
[00:37:58] Are you now scared of heights?
[00:38:00] No, I hate heights
[00:38:01] How did you do it?
[00:38:03] Well first you can't say no
[00:38:04] to an opportunity like that
[00:38:06] I got halfway up
[00:38:07] and there's a urinal
[00:38:08] this is for work staff only
[00:38:11] by that point you are very high indeed
[00:38:13] so I kind of last stop shop used that
[00:38:16] and then I took myself off for a little walk
[00:38:18] just to look at the view
[00:38:19] because it's glass everywhere
[00:38:20] and I gave myself a pep talk
[00:38:22] which was man the fuck up
[00:38:26] This is an opportunity
[00:38:27] that basically Tom Cruise has had
[00:38:29] and a couple of other people
[00:38:31] Dallas has been hasn't he?
[00:38:32] Yeah Dallas Campbell went up for that
[00:38:34] series that I got to go
[00:38:35] and see the ISS for Generation Earth
[00:38:37] please check it out on
[00:38:38] BBCI.net
[00:38:40] on YouTube
[00:38:41] and quite good to subscribe
[00:38:42] James Slug
[00:38:43] Do you like how I did that?
[00:38:44] I hardly ever do that
[00:38:45] I love that show
[00:38:46] it was one of my favourite shows to work on
[00:38:48] anyway, carry on
[00:38:49] Yeah, so I just thought
[00:38:51] listen, if you in any way
[00:38:53] chicken out of this
[00:38:54] then you're just going to spend
[00:38:55] the rest of your life regretting it
[00:38:57] so you better to regret something
[00:38:59] so I went off and did it
[00:39:00] The top of the building sways enormously
[00:39:01] because it's a thousand meters in the air
[00:39:04] and it's windy
[00:39:05] but by
[00:39:08] by day three or four
[00:39:09] I had normalised it
[00:39:11] and I could actually enjoy it
[00:39:13] and it was absolutely insane
[00:39:15] it was absolutely insane
[00:39:17] and part of that
[00:39:18] and this is the complete insanity
[00:39:20] of our wonderful industry
[00:39:22] is I had five cameras mounted at the top
[00:39:24] and we were filming a 360 degree
[00:39:26] time lapse
[00:39:27] 24 hours a day
[00:39:29] so we had to do
[00:39:30] day into night
[00:39:31] and night back into day
[00:39:32] so it's for an immersive thing
[00:39:34] so quite complicated
[00:39:35] a lot of kit had to get up there
[00:39:37] and after about the first couple of days
[00:39:39] we had a huge flare problem
[00:39:41] and this is when flare isn't good
[00:39:43] because we had the flare coming up from the floodlights
[00:39:45] that around the bottom of the burge
[00:39:47] cleaf that lighted up at night
[00:39:48] and those are very very bright
[00:39:50] and they're focused on the building
[00:39:52] so from the camera's point of view
[00:39:54] they were creating nightmare
[00:39:56] across the image
[00:39:57] they were creating aberrations and flares
[00:39:58] and it was absolutely awful
[00:39:59] so stitching it together
[00:40:00] was going to be nigh on impossible
[00:40:02] so I asked
[00:40:04] whether it would be a tall possible
[00:40:07] to black out the burge cleaver
[00:40:09] for a week
[00:40:11] while we were filming
[00:40:13] and the building manager called Elvis
[00:40:15] great name
[00:40:16] was like
[00:40:17] can I just double check
[00:40:18] are you seriously asking me
[00:40:20] to switch all the lights off at night
[00:40:22] on this building
[00:40:24] I was like yes that's exactly what I'm asking
[00:40:26] he went
[00:40:27] you do know who I have to ask
[00:40:28] I was like yes I know exactly who you've got to ask
[00:40:33] and what happened
[00:40:35] the lights went off the next night
[00:40:37] wow
[00:40:43] so that's yeah
[00:40:45] and you had to ask just to be clear
[00:40:47] hello shake Mohammed
[00:40:49] right to the top
[00:40:50] top of the building
[00:40:51] and he said yes
[00:40:52] I'm driving Lugithia
[00:40:54] last time I saw one of these was in
[00:40:56] Greece
[00:40:58] with John Travolta and Olivia Newton John
[00:41:02] to find an answer
[00:41:06] I've arranged to meet a Californian astronomer
[00:41:09] called Alex Filipenko
[00:41:11] who's going to take me back 13 and a half
[00:41:13] billion years
[00:41:15] to a time before the stars ever existed
[00:41:20] so one
[00:41:22] scene in particular that I just
[00:41:24] I watched it with my kind of director hat on
[00:41:26] and thought oh that was a lovely idea
[00:41:28] what a lovely opportunity that you did
[00:41:30] really well to realise was the
[00:41:32] with the drive-in movie theatre
[00:41:34] it was great
[00:41:36] it was just great
[00:41:38] it was in every way like it referenced
[00:41:40] America in terms of the lovely cliche of
[00:41:42] driving in that part of America
[00:41:44] it was a postcard from America with a love letter
[00:41:46] but it also managed to be not gratuitous
[00:41:48] because it served a wonderful
[00:41:50] purpose of actually being the perfect platform
[00:41:52] to demonstrate and show some stuff
[00:41:54] in this case about the cosmic microwave background
[00:41:56] radiation
[00:41:57] was like you know using
[00:41:59] big science data and trying to show it
[00:42:01] in a really interesting way which is
[00:42:03] a really hard part of our job isn't it Alex
[00:42:05] to try and you have this science
[00:42:07] you need to how do you show these
[00:42:09] kind of pictures that people have got from
[00:42:11] telescopes and machines how do we show them
[00:42:13] and make them look really cool and it can be quite difficult
[00:42:15] very difficult and that's what it goes back
[00:42:17] to presenters again having a presenter there
[00:42:19] to help with that is hugely helpful
[00:42:23] so when can we expect
[00:42:25] fusion power
[00:42:27] from the mains
[00:42:29] alright my prediction I hate being
[00:42:31] a futurist
[00:42:38] 2036
[00:42:40] June
[00:42:43] that's when it could be done
[00:42:45] with an exoteric effort
[00:42:47] 2027
[00:42:49] I don't think it's going to happen until 10
[00:42:54] there's a 50% chance of
[00:43:00] it working
[00:43:02] 20 years after you seriously found the science
[00:43:06] so it's time for commitment
[00:43:11] the other scene that I just thought was
[00:43:13] brilliantly realised and again
[00:43:15] it was so ridiculously simple
[00:43:17] was the very end of the film
[00:43:19] with the various contributors
[00:43:21] giving their prediction as to when
[00:43:23] nuclear fusion may finally be cracked
[00:43:25] specifically I think the first
[00:43:27] domestic power generation
[00:43:29] I think was the question they were asked
[00:43:31] and they wrote that answer on a little portable chalkboard
[00:43:33] like the Bob Dylan music video
[00:43:35] where he's got all the words on his
[00:43:37] boards and it was like that it was super fun
[00:43:39] but really got across the point of
[00:43:41] when is this going to happen
[00:43:43] and you look at all the answers
[00:43:45] they gave one answer was
[00:43:47] like last year, year before
[00:43:49] but actually he said that's not
[00:43:51] realistic so they're all kind of in the
[00:43:53] future and interestingly all the
[00:43:55] every place they visited
[00:43:57] no one's really got there yet
[00:43:59] they've made step changes
[00:44:01] towards it but no one's got there
[00:44:03] so Jet has now decommissioned
[00:44:05] but had a really good kind of
[00:44:07] swan song before it was
[00:44:09] shut down it had 16.5kg
[00:44:11] of TNT was the burst of energy
[00:44:13] that it attained
[00:44:15] the Tokamak, the K-Star reactor
[00:44:17] so far has successfully contained
[00:44:19] plasma for 48 seconds
[00:44:21] Ita is under construction
[00:44:23] and I've been there
[00:44:27] and that's the other weird thing about watching this film
[00:44:29] and then re-watching it is you kind of go
[00:44:31] oh god I've
[00:44:33] here I am 20 years later and I've stood
[00:44:35] in the centre of Ita
[00:44:37] making a science film
[00:44:39] with Hannah Frye
[00:44:41] I never thought that would have happened 20 years ago
[00:44:43] What you've just described very neatly illustrates
[00:44:45] the cliche of nuclear fusion which is
[00:44:47] that it always seems to be 30 or 40 or 50
[00:44:49] years away, a bit like when are we going to Mars
[00:44:51] but it was interesting in a film that was made
[00:44:53] 15 years ago it's already
[00:44:55] a very bleak portrayal
[00:44:57] of our near future
[00:44:59] and it doesn't feel like we're a whole lot closer to solving it
[00:45:01] It was interesting that they finished
[00:45:03] on this note of kind of Brian
[00:45:05] saying I have a newfound
[00:45:07] respect of the people who are building these things
[00:45:09] but you kind of get the sense
[00:45:11] that he's like yeah, you know
[00:45:13] is this really going to happen, it's only going to happen
[00:45:15] if we put a load of money into it
[00:45:17] and we make it happen and we're just not doing that
[00:45:19] A question that we ask
[00:45:21] towards the end of every one of our podcasts
[00:45:23] is if you were making this film today
[00:45:25] would it be different, what would it look like
[00:45:27] and I wonder if the three of us were off to make this one
[00:45:29] tomorrow, it might look quite similar
[00:45:31] It's actually a film that you could make again today
[00:45:33] because it'd be really interesting to kind of really delve into
[00:45:35] where everyone is at
[00:45:37] with this technology
[00:45:39] Do you think we'd be making the same film? Do you think it would look different?
[00:45:41] That's what actually stuck out to me
[00:45:43] when I watched it again
[00:45:45] was how worryingly similar
[00:45:47] it might be
[00:45:49] actually wouldn't cost much
[00:45:51] really wouldn't cost much at all
[00:45:53] even flights and a car hire
[00:45:55] some hotel rooms
[00:45:57] and a really, really expensive DOP
[00:45:59] I mean yeah
[00:46:01] I mean very expensive
[00:46:03] When I was watching it
[00:46:05] I was thinking gosh how technology changed
[00:46:07] in terms of camera technology
[00:46:09] dynamic range of the camera
[00:46:11] the same framings would look so different now
[00:46:13] because the dynamic range
[00:46:15] of the cameras is able to handle
[00:46:17] those framings a lot better
[00:46:19] What do you mean by that
[00:46:21] Do you think the cameras see those shots differently?
[00:46:23] The dynamic range
[00:46:25] of a camera is the difference
[00:46:27] between the blacks and the whites
[00:46:29] and how many shades of grey
[00:46:31] it can see
[00:46:33] and you measure that in stops
[00:46:35] so
[00:46:37] different cameras and different film stocks
[00:46:39] have a different dynamic range
[00:46:41] basically enables you to have
[00:46:43] more detail in your highlights
[00:46:45] as well as more detail in your blacks
[00:46:47] and not to lose that detail
[00:46:49] so for example
[00:46:51] if you're
[00:46:53] standing on a snowy field
[00:46:55] if you're not careful the snow will just
[00:46:57] bleach to white and you won't have any detail
[00:46:59] in your snow but then to preserve the detail
[00:47:01] in your snow you will lose all of the detail
[00:47:03] in your shadows so the shadow
[00:47:05] part of the face will just go to black
[00:47:07] and the cameras back then
[00:47:09] had a very low dynamic range
[00:47:11] So they're looking into the sun
[00:47:13] and you can't see much of the shot whereas you did that
[00:47:15] same shot today you're looking into the sun
[00:47:17] so you'd be able to see all of your presenter
[00:47:19] all of your background all of your foreground
[00:47:21] is that what you're saying?
[00:47:23] You get subtle shadow details
[00:47:25] subtle highlight details coming through
[00:47:27] and you basically see a lot more of the picture
[00:47:29] If you asked me before I made this film
[00:47:31] one of the greatest achievements in history
[00:47:33] of humanity
[00:47:35] I would say the moments when we overreached
[00:47:37] the moments when we
[00:47:39] set foot on the moon
[00:47:41] or took photographs of Saturn and Jupiter
[00:47:43] and the distant planets
[00:47:45] building a fusion power station
[00:47:47] that works and delivers
[00:47:49] electrons into the power grid of a city
[00:47:51] will be the next step
[00:47:53] in the evolution of our civilization
[00:47:55] it's just
[00:47:57] about beyond our capabilities
[00:47:59] technologically and scientifically
[00:48:01] at the moment
[00:48:03] and that's surely the best
[00:48:05] place to be
[00:48:07] that's the place you want to stand
[00:48:09] as a human being
[00:48:11] so I would celebrate the fusion power station builders
[00:48:13] in a way that I wouldn't have done before we made this film
[00:48:17] One thing I thought was really interesting
[00:48:19] is that some of the pieces to camera
[00:48:21] were jump cut
[00:48:23] where
[00:48:25] I guess Brian was talking about
[00:48:27] something
[00:48:29] and kind of riffing off an idea
[00:48:31] and they jumped cut
[00:48:33] and they didn't use cutaways, they just jump cut it
[00:48:35] why hide it?
[00:48:37] They jump cut it and the other thing they did
[00:48:39] was cut into the piece to camera
[00:48:41] non sync
[00:48:43] and then they would cut in to Brian
[00:48:45] not
[00:48:47] speaking
[00:48:49] both of those are examples of things that you just
[00:48:51] taught not to do
[00:48:53] but breaking ones is fun
[00:48:55] and also it's very music video-esque
[00:48:59] in a music video
[00:49:01] or in music you're allowed to do that
[00:49:03] because there are no rules
[00:49:05] One more word on Gideon's
[00:49:07] excellent taste in music because the film finishes
[00:49:09] with the kinks this time tomorrow
[00:49:11] which is wonderful
[00:49:13] It felt modern, it felt fresh
[00:49:15] it felt Brian didn't it?
[00:49:17] It did feel very Brian
[00:49:19] I think that the lyrics of that song are actually
[00:49:21] rather powerful in the context of the ending
[00:49:23] of this film and what this film is about
[00:49:25] This time tomorrow where will we be
[00:49:27] This time tomorrow
[00:49:29] what will we know
[00:49:31] Will we still be here
[00:49:33] It's powerful stuff
[00:49:35] It's especially powerful when you consider where we are now politically
[00:49:37] You've brought in this brilliant film
[00:49:39] I really enjoyed it
[00:49:41] I always enjoy Brian's stuff
[00:49:43] You've had the opportunity to watch it again
[00:49:45] and I just wondered if you could tell us
[00:49:47] how do you feel about this film
[00:49:49] What does it mean to you?
[00:49:51] Yeah, I think the film was inspirational
[00:49:53] on many many levels
[00:49:55] and I think it perhaps offered
[00:49:57] a direction through
[00:49:59] inspiration of where I could
[00:50:01] aim for
[00:50:03] It's really interesting having watched it again
[00:50:05] not that one's gone full circle
[00:50:07] but it's just the subject matter
[00:50:09] is fascinating that
[00:50:11] so many years on
[00:50:13] it hasn't changed
[00:50:15] It's still relevant, isn't it?
[00:50:17] It's still relevant
[00:50:19] It's an old film
[00:50:21] It looks old when you watch it
[00:50:23] because the technology has changed
[00:50:25] and what have you
[00:50:27] But otherwise the exact script
[00:50:29] could be used again
[00:50:31] today and it'd be relevant
[00:50:33] which is
[00:50:35] a bit scary
[00:50:37] In terms of science
[00:50:39] I think it shows great skill
[00:50:41] in the filmmakers
[00:50:43] Gideon writing the script
[00:50:45] Brian delivering the script
[00:50:47] in his unique way with the kind of funny
[00:50:49] asides
[00:50:51] and helping Kevin and Gideon
[00:50:53] get this look of music
[00:50:55] video to make it which still
[00:50:57] feels fresh
[00:50:59] even though they went on to use that a lot
[00:51:01] in the following programs
[00:51:03] that Brian fronted
[00:51:05] it still feels relevant and fresh today
[00:51:07] I think
[00:51:09] I just think it's really important those kind of films exist
[00:51:11] because they do inspire you
[00:51:13] Hopefully it inspires some people to watch it
[00:51:15] and then perhaps choose a path
[00:51:17] in life like an education
[00:51:19] degree course or something like that
[00:51:21] and then who knows where they're going to end up
[00:51:23] helping our species
[00:51:25] in the future because it's kind of got to that point
[00:51:27] at a crux level
[00:51:29] but then on a purely selfish or an individual level
[00:51:33] it's also been inspirational because it made you
[00:51:35] made me look at
[00:51:37] the whole art form of TV
[00:51:39] and thought that it might be relevant to me
[00:51:41] I was in a difficult position
[00:51:43] because I absolutely loved science
[00:51:45] and I knew I
[00:51:47] I didn't do a PhD because I knew it would be a waste of time
[00:51:49] because I didn't want to stay in academia
[00:51:51] That's exactly how I felt
[00:51:53] It was exactly the same thing
[00:51:55] and it felt, I don't know about you
[00:51:57] but it felt a slightly awkward and uncomfortable thing which was that
[00:52:01] I love the subject
[00:52:03] I love the subject but by God
[00:52:05] I don't want to work in that field
[00:52:07] I don't want to be an academic
[00:52:09] Please, please don't let that happen
[00:52:11] It was the same for me in engineering
[00:52:13] I had a job, I was about to leave university
[00:52:15] and I had a job lined up to work in a factory
[00:52:17] My specialism was manufacturing engineering
[00:52:19] and I thought I don't, this doesn't feel right
[00:52:21] this doesn't feel like me
[00:52:23] I need to be more creative somehow
[00:52:25] and what could I do
[00:52:27] that somehow moulds the two together
[00:52:29] Yeah, it was that
[00:52:31] I felt really depressed when I finished my degree
[00:52:33] because I was so happy
[00:52:35] at Bath and I was so happy with biology
[00:52:37] and I was so happy with biologists
[00:52:39] like it's like kind of
[00:52:41] my kind of people
[00:52:43] like I suddenly, I was just like in a lab full of
[00:52:45] other geeks
[00:52:47] and I just felt, oh God this is where I belong
[00:52:49] It's great
[00:52:51] and then I felt so upset
[00:52:53] when I finished, I did a masters obviously
[00:52:55] kind of thought, well this is
[00:52:57] hang around university life as much as possible
[00:52:59] Delay the inevitable
[00:53:01] Delay the inevitable, let's get another degree
[00:53:03] So I did that and then I was so depressed
[00:53:05] at the end of that guy just like
[00:53:07] what do I do now?
[00:53:09] This film did show you the way somewhat
[00:53:11] didn't it? It came at the right time
[00:53:13] Yeah, it did come at the right time
[00:53:15] Well actually that's not true, I didn't find it at all
[00:53:17] after university I just
[00:53:19] did what made me happy in terms of employment
[00:53:21] which was working in theatre because they were also
[00:53:23] my kind of people as in I felt very comfortable
[00:53:25] and happy there
[00:53:27] I've never lost that itch
[00:53:29] for science
[00:53:37] You can get tablets for it
[00:53:39] Yeah, I think you need to see some on her
[00:53:41] Spoiler alert
[00:53:43] Yeah, so I just
[00:53:45] yeah, so the film came
[00:53:47] at a really interesting point
[00:53:49] because I'm just like actually
[00:53:51] this is something
[00:53:53] where my passion could actually go
[00:53:55] I could actually
[00:53:57] convey my love
[00:53:59] of this subject to other people
[00:54:01] and that's probably where I
[00:54:03] fit and then
[00:54:05] some of my happiest times at work
[00:54:07] would be making science films
[00:54:09] For example, at school I didn't like physics
[00:54:11] because my physics teacher wasn't very good at
[00:54:13] teaching physics and then Brian
[00:54:15] comes along and suddenly as an adult I'm able to go
[00:54:17] Jesus, these subjects are amazing
[00:54:19] Why didn't I study that at school? I'd have bloody loved it
[00:54:21] So what are we saying here at the end
[00:54:23] it's that inspirational people
[00:54:25] given a platform like a horizon
[00:54:27] or a science
[00:54:29] film on another channel wherever that might be
[00:54:31] I've got great power to inspire
[00:54:33] whether it's a generation of kids
[00:54:35] studying physics or biology or chemistry
[00:54:37] or whatever it might be or a generation of people
[00:54:39] who are coming off the back of a degree
[00:54:41] and not quite sure where to go next
[00:54:43] Science films are important
[00:54:45] They are