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[00:00:01] A mindless, wittering production.
[00:00:12] All I knew was I wanted to try and understand the way the world works, the natural world.
[00:00:19] We explore because of the idea of money.
[00:00:24] Science is the storytelling of our time.
[00:00:27] So me storytelling has always been the way to leave sorrow.
[00:00:32] Hello and welcome to Who Moved the Tortoise, a podcast about science and wildlife filmmaking.
[00:00:41] I'm Alex Hemingway.
[00:00:43] And I'm Kate Dooley.
[00:00:45] And as usual we're joined by someone from the world of science or wildlife television
[00:00:48] to talk about the film or TV show or other stuff that inspired them.
[00:00:52] This time we're going to be talking to four-time Emmy winning filmmaker Martin Williams.
[00:00:57] Martin's earliest foray into the creative arts was playing mankind
[00:01:00] in a school production of Castle of Perseverance.
[00:01:04] And in many ways it's been downhill all the way since.
[00:01:07] His early TV career included Stints as a runner on the Pepsi Chart show
[00:01:11] and as a production assistant on popular Channel 4 daytime show Pet Rescue.
[00:01:15] Since then Martin has directed major global figures including President Zelensky, Prince William and Professor Stephen Hawking.
[00:01:22] He's been the driving force behind some of Sir David Attenborough's most recent work
[00:01:25] including his multi-award winning 3D, VR and AR projects.
[00:01:30] And in 2014 he founded his own production company, Tailsmith
[00:01:35] which specializes in natural history, science and environmental filmmaking
[00:01:39] where he currently is co-producing with Titanic and Avatar legend James Cameron.
[00:01:44] Martin's choice for the film or series that inspired him
[00:01:47] is the 1981 BBC series Bellamy's Backyard Safari.
[00:01:52] You don't have to go to the ends of the earth to learn about the wonders of nature.
[00:02:05] Your personal school of evolution is right in your own backyard.
[00:02:10] First question Martin, is how hard a decision was it to pick something as your inspiration?
[00:02:16] Quite, yeah quite hard I think. I mean there was a lot of stuff out there.
[00:02:19] I remember in the 80s you know it was very much about Tuesday and Thursday nights.
[00:02:23] There was Top of the Pops and there was Tomorrow's World, the sort of appointment to view programs
[00:02:29] and I would always watch those. But in terms of science and television and natural history
[00:02:33] I mean David Attenborough captured the imagination but back then David Bellamy for me was
[00:02:39] he was on a par with Sir David in terms of the quality of the output
[00:02:43] and his passion for the natural world was up there
[00:02:46] and there was something about his style that was just pretty engaging
[00:02:48] and I think actually when you guys asked me to think of what the program was that inspired me
[00:02:54] I couldn't remember the name of it. I just remember seeing David Bellamy shrunk down to this honey eye shrunk the kid's size
[00:03:02] wandering around in his garden and making garden wildlife really exciting
[00:03:08] and I'd never seen anything like that before because it seemed like you could get into a world that you just hadn't seen before
[00:03:14] and so it was exciting.
[00:03:15] So through the wonders of the BBC Genome website we can dig in and find the actual Radio Times entry for when it was broadcast
[00:03:23] and it was a Thursday. It was Thursday the 9th of July 1981, 10 to 7 in the evening on BBC One.
[00:03:30] Who is the Martin of July 81? How old are you? Where are you? Who are you watching it with?
[00:03:35] Wow yes I'd have been seven years old. I guess I watched it with my brother.
[00:03:39] I don't know I did everything with my brother back then you know we were very close
[00:03:42] he's two and a half years older than me and you know my parents would just sort of let us go in the garden
[00:03:49] out beyond the house. We lived in Wembury which is a village just outside Plymouth on the coast.
[00:03:55] Amazing place to live you know we could walk down to the beach, we went down on our bikes really steep hill
[00:04:00] I remember going down there and always thinking how am I going to climb up here
[00:04:04] but we were going explore the beach look under rocks go swimming snorkeling make dens
[00:04:09] and yeah it was an idyllic childhood. At this point do you already have a love of the natural world, a curiosity of nature?
[00:04:17] Yeah that's in there. It was the science of the natural world that always captivated me.
[00:04:22] I think you get some natural history filmmakers who just love animals
[00:04:26] whereas for me it was always about how does all this work. I liked anything sciencey really
[00:04:31] I was fascinated with how does the human body work and things like that
[00:04:33] and so for me nature was the same it was like how did it all fit together.
[00:04:38] I love snorkeling, I loved looking under rocks and seeing what was behind that clump of seaweed
[00:04:43] and getting down deep and so the sea at that point was really fascinating for me
[00:04:47] and I had this idea about being a marine biologist. I mean the natural history shows that I saw
[00:04:52] I never really considered being a filmmaker actually because I didn't think it was a real job
[00:04:56] I thought you had to, my dad was a doctor and I thought well I'll be a doctor as well
[00:04:59] I like science and I like, I'm interested in the human body
[00:05:03] and that was kind of my focus all the way through school and everything actually.
[00:05:06] I didn't consider making films as a real job
[00:05:10] I just thought it was something other people did and then it was a university
[00:05:14] and I thought oh actually maybe this is something I could do
[00:05:17] clearly I didn't get the place at med school so that had something to do with it.
[00:05:21] Well I did actually but I felt one grade short in chemistry and I could have retaken it
[00:05:26] but I didn't, I thought I'd do something else.
[00:05:29] So where did the filmmaking switch then? How did that come about?
[00:05:32] I mean at school there was a video club and we got to play with the camera
[00:05:37] and back then it's just you know you get other kids, you sit them down
[00:05:40] you kind of interview them and you mess around and see what the shots look like
[00:05:43] and I remember doing that and there was one, I just kind of got the camera wrong
[00:05:47] and what I was doing with the camera I got wrong and I kind of zoomed in on somebody's hands
[00:05:51] and the teacher looked over my shoulder and said what are you doing there
[00:05:53] and I thought I'm in trouble and he said that's really good, that's called a cutaway
[00:05:56] because he thought oh right is it okay that's good and so I started to realise that there was a
[00:06:03] you know this was something I enjoyed, it was creative, it was fun but it was a hobby.
[00:06:06] And how did you feel watching the show back now? What struck you as did you kind of
[00:06:12] transport you back to a boy or did you also have now I make TV I can actually see all the hooks
[00:06:18] that they put in here for kids?
[00:06:20] A bit of both, I think there was a kind of a very kind of straight way of making television
[00:06:23] back then where you just had a presenter and they told you kind of interesting facts
[00:06:27] and that was kind of enough, I was really struck by how quickly David Bellamy talked
[00:06:31] so there's this and there's that and look at the earthworm with its segments and they're full of this
[00:06:35] and it's like whoa slow down take your time but it's very much about delivering interesting facts
[00:06:40] which TV has moved on so much since then you just never, you wouldn't do that anymore
[00:06:45] we're so focused on emotion and storytelling and the facts are vital
[00:06:49] but they're smuggled in through in other ways you know you don't start with the fact anymore
[00:06:54] but also you watch something like that and you think the clothes David was wearing was a pretty
[00:06:59] it's effectively wearing a pair of hot pants
[00:07:02] he's not Kylie Minogue is he?
[00:07:05] No he's not, he's not, it's pretty unsettling watching it talk about that
[00:07:09] particularly when he's sort of roving around in slug slide
[00:07:13] What?
[00:07:15] The gut myself is absolutely disgusting
[00:07:22] and I think the culprit's over there
[00:07:25] a slug going about it's all the garden business
[00:07:28] smashing things aren't they, the way they glide about so smoothly
[00:07:32] and this is what allows them to do it
[00:07:35] I wondered if there's a bigger point there about him actually which is
[00:07:38] and I think this is massively to his credit
[00:07:40] he doesn't seem to be someone who really cares what anyone thinks
[00:07:43] he's happy to throw himself into any situation
[00:07:47] I was watching it thinking I could imagine presenters nowadays being well I'm not doing that
[00:07:51] but there is such an almost childish joy about the way he approaches his work
[00:07:56] that you can't fail to be swept along by it
[00:07:59] and I think that's his secret
[00:08:02] I mean you say that about modern presenters
[00:08:05] but we also live in a much more tolerant world now don't we in terms of
[00:08:08] neurodiversity and so on
[00:08:09] we have a kind of an absolute passion
[00:08:12] celebrated now in a big way
[00:08:15] but I totally agree I mean I think he clearly just had a real passion for what he did
[00:08:19] and was keen to share that passion
[00:08:22] a crazy academic who got to make TV shows
[00:08:25] he was as inspiring as David Attenborough
[00:08:28] Now I've got four major loves in my life
[00:08:31] children, plants, the bay and all microscopes
[00:08:34] which comes first well it depends on how the kids have been behaving themselves
[00:08:37] but I have in my love of all microscopes for me dad
[00:08:41] and I can't really remember a time in our house
[00:08:44] when there wasn't a microscope
[00:08:46] and if I was very good on Saturday evening well dad would get out the microscope
[00:08:50] and allow me to see into a world of minutiae that envelops us all the time
[00:08:54] but few of us ever see
[00:08:57] What we do now is sort of take that chance to look at another world
[00:09:02] and put it into our TV programs
[00:09:04] and it's been inspired by that kind of show
[00:09:07] and I've seen on Safari was the first time I'd ever seen
[00:09:10] the ability to get down on a level with animals of that size
[00:09:13] and plants of that size
[00:09:15] and feel like you're in a jungle
[00:09:17] as a six or seven year old boy who was just love getting outside
[00:09:21] the idea that you could go on Safari in your garden was endlessly inspiring
[00:09:26] and it's available to everyone isn't it
[00:09:29] everyone can do it
[00:09:31] that's what he says at the end of the program
[00:09:33] like now you can go and discover it yourself
[00:09:35] because wherever you live
[00:09:37] you're soaked under
[00:09:39] that's what's magical about it is it makes you want to run outside immediately
[00:09:42] after watching the show doesn't it and have a look yourself
[00:09:44] and it's not just the cute birds and the fluffy rabbits
[00:09:47] it's the vicious fungus that hunts nematodes
[00:09:51] These fungi are highly efficient predators
[00:09:55] and each ring is a trap
[00:09:57] just look at the strength of the constriction
[00:10:06] the fungus holds the worm fast
[00:10:08] and then comes the really sinister bit
[00:10:13] fungus just grows into the animals body
[00:10:19] and digest it from the inside out
[00:10:24] I don't think I'd ever seen that before
[00:10:26] I was completely amazed by that
[00:10:28] there's actually a lot of microscopy on screen in this film as well isn't there
[00:10:32] which is perhaps something we wouldn't do in quite the same way nowadays
[00:10:35] and I think we've had lots of movie projects
[00:10:37] and the recent Disney show Bugs Life
[00:10:41] are all sort of inspired by that as the original one
[00:10:45] the original series that took you down to that microscopic level
[00:10:49] and actually what was fascinating for me was
[00:10:52] looking back at that thinking well yeah you can tell where there's
[00:10:55] a bit of green screen going on maybe in David Bellamy's world
[00:10:59] but some of the kind of storytelling is still exciting and well done
[00:11:03] It is a perfect kids show
[00:11:04] in that you've got someone who's incredibly passionate
[00:11:08] and in a really innocent way in his short shorts admittedly
[00:11:11] but in a really innocent way
[00:11:13] and then you've got the goo and the baddies
[00:11:15] you've got all these things in there that are classic kids tropes
[00:11:18] that you know kids love that kind of stuff
[00:11:20] and he runs away from predators
[00:11:22] so how exciting is that?
[00:11:24] it was a spider that tries to eat it
[00:11:26] I thought if I watched that as a kid I would be genuinely scared
[00:11:28] they don't go all out on the Hollywood visual effects
[00:11:31] but still you feel like you're in that world
[00:11:32] and that's certainly something that as a filmmaker you learn to do that
[00:11:36] what are the three or four things I can do
[00:11:38] that make the audience feel like they're in that world for as long as possible
[00:11:41] and you sew them through the show with your budget in mind
[00:11:44] and if you get it right it works
[00:11:46] and the audience feel like they're there
[00:11:48] and that's what that show did
[00:11:50] today if you made it you might do a lot more shots
[00:11:52] but actually they're being clever
[00:11:54] you can make the shots last can't you
[00:11:56] you can have him running for quite a while
[00:11:58] and he's telling you information while he's doing it
[00:12:00] and you don't need to cut that up any more actually
[00:12:02] yeah and it's you're still imagining the spider behind him
[00:12:05] you don't need to see the spider you sort of think it's there
[00:12:07] your imagination is doing the rest
[00:12:09] even though it's a kid show I don't feel he's ever talking down to the audience
[00:12:12] it doesn't feel like that the language has been moderated
[00:12:15] particularly down to be more child friendly
[00:12:17] it's like saying here it all is
[00:12:19] you just absorb this and enjoy it
[00:12:21] and do with this information what you will
[00:12:23] there's a confidence in the filmmaker there
[00:12:25] that the audience are going to sit there and watch the whole thing
[00:12:27] the effects and the kind of concept were so kind of new and exciting
[00:12:30] but also I don't know what the alternative is
[00:12:32] the alternative was for kids you know
[00:12:35] they're watching that program or they don't watch television
[00:12:37] I think now we are so aware of that
[00:12:40] that everything we do when making our films
[00:12:43] is geared towards creating an emotional arc
[00:12:46] and giving the viewer time to breathe and absorb that fact
[00:12:49] with a kind of hit of something exciting to watch in between
[00:12:52] and you know I just think it's a way that filmmaking has evolved
[00:12:55] that I think I don't think the audience would stick with it
[00:12:57] I think you can have that delivery much more confidently on YouTube now
[00:12:59] rather than having it on TV
[00:13:01] every word in your script is in service of the story today
[00:13:04] generally when we write scripts
[00:13:06] you don't throw anything away
[00:13:08] it's interesting what you say about YouTube there actually
[00:13:10] you know my kids watch a lot of YouTube
[00:13:12] I try to stop them watching too much
[00:13:14] but it's interesting the stuff that they watch
[00:13:16] is quite Bellamy-esque in its style you're right
[00:13:18] there's no pausing for they just talking
[00:13:21] you know 10 to a dozen and really you can watch that
[00:13:23] and it's like where's the craft in that
[00:13:25] but you're right that is the Bellamy style is alive and well
[00:13:27] shall we talk more about David Bellamy himself
[00:13:30] and how he got to be where he got to
[00:13:32] he was an academic in his own right
[00:13:34] he was Dr Bellamy
[00:13:36] 1967 massive oil spill disaster of the Tory Canyon
[00:13:39] all of a sudden
[00:13:41] the large stretch of coast was going to be changed
[00:13:44] this balance if a balance exists was going to be wiped out
[00:13:48] he was brought in as an environmental consultant
[00:13:51] on that by the government
[00:13:53] and wrote a scientific paper
[00:13:55] which was published in Nature
[00:13:57] and this was what originally brought him to public prominence
[00:14:00] and were it not for that event
[00:14:03] he may never then have risen to the prominence that we now know
[00:14:06] so of course they had to find some poor scientific idiot
[00:14:09] to be dragged screaming through his ivory town on to the box
[00:14:13] my was it
[00:14:15] my assumption was when you watch him
[00:14:17] and you get a sense of the man that
[00:14:19] he was always kind of born to be this slightly outlandish
[00:14:21] expressive presenter
[00:14:23] but actually his way into public prominence
[00:14:25] was through something very academic
[00:14:27] it's not funny though that his career in television started
[00:14:30] with an environmental disaster
[00:14:32] and actually his views on climate change were
[00:14:35] he says that that's what killed off his career
[00:14:38] wasn't it his climate denier stance
[00:14:41] and the politics I think
[00:14:43] because he ran to be an MP
[00:14:45] and didn't get through
[00:14:47] but because he was kind of giving his political views across
[00:14:49] which the BBC said well we can't have you as a presenter
[00:14:51] if you display your political views like this
[00:14:53] so I don't know how much was which
[00:14:55] for a long long time
[00:14:57] and I think that's what's important for the other side of that argument
[00:14:59] so it wasn't that he was ambivalent
[00:15:01] or kind of hiding that
[00:15:03] it was a full 180 at some point
[00:15:05] what he believed climate change didn't
[00:15:07] wasn't happening
[00:15:09] yeah he just didn't think it was true
[00:15:11] he thought it was poppycock as the kind of you know word he would use
[00:15:13] rewinding to his heyday
[00:15:15] which is the 80s
[00:15:17] and thank you for bringing it in
[00:15:19] because it was hugely nostalgic for me
[00:15:21] I mean he kind of was my childhood
[00:15:23] and I think you've already mentioned
[00:15:25] that he was huge
[00:15:27] in my head he was as big as
[00:15:29] or if not bigger than Attenborough
[00:15:31] for a time and during this period
[00:15:33] I think it's not possible to kind of overstate
[00:15:35] how huge he was for quite a while
[00:15:37] and he was universally famous
[00:15:39] you know everybody
[00:15:41] every child in the playground could do a David
[00:15:43] that would mean impression
[00:15:45] I'm just going to refer back to something you said earlier
[00:15:47] you were saying we wouldn't really do it like this anymore
[00:15:49] unless you had someone as sort of similarly expressive
[00:15:51] and passionate as him
[00:15:53] do you lament that we don't do things that way anymore
[00:15:55] yes because like you said that was my childhood
[00:15:59] there's nostalgia attached to that
[00:16:01] I quite like that just sort of presenter tells you some stuff
[00:16:04] we've gone so far down the line
[00:16:06] of being subsist by story
[00:16:08] and baking entertainment into what we do
[00:16:10] there's a fashionable way of making films
[00:16:13] like in lots of genres
[00:16:15] I think in filmmaking
[00:16:17] we've gone down that path
[00:16:19] I think the streamers now
[00:16:21] as well added in this extra competition
[00:16:23] so we're really obsessed with
[00:16:25] catchy titles and things
[00:16:28] and I think inevitably a presenter talking about something
[00:16:30] is quite simple
[00:16:32] it's quite clean
[00:16:34] you've got to like that person
[00:16:36] you've got to like what they're talking about
[00:16:38] but you know I think as an industry
[00:16:40] we're in this difficult period at the moment
[00:16:42] where specialist subjects on television
[00:16:44] specialist factual
[00:16:46] and science is struggling
[00:16:48] unless you can create entertainment out of it
[00:16:50] so that you're getting the numbers up
[00:16:52] getting the viewers up
[00:16:53] and you're going to get the shame
[00:16:55] specifically on the decline of presenter led stuff
[00:16:58] what explains that
[00:17:00] I mean is it as simple as
[00:17:02] because you have to sell stuff globally now
[00:17:04] to make it work financially
[00:17:06] that unless your presenter is globally known
[00:17:09] and is a universal name
[00:17:11] it's just not going to work anymore
[00:17:13] but there's practical hurdles as well
[00:17:16] so if it's a local
[00:17:18] if it's a British presenter
[00:17:20] who's not known in America
[00:17:21] that's one thing
[00:17:23] but the fact they're speaking English also means that
[00:17:25] it's hard for that series to be sold in other territories
[00:17:29] so it does make it necessarily
[00:17:32] more difficult
[00:17:34] so finding universal subjects
[00:17:36] is always going to
[00:17:38] those shows are always going to sell better around the world
[00:17:40] so we're talking like dinosaurs
[00:17:42] sharks
[00:17:44] there are a certain subjects
[00:17:46] Nazis that always get shows made on them
[00:17:48] because they're universally everyone
[00:17:49] who's on the screen doesn't know
[00:17:51] I think presenters now
[00:17:53] they have to be more like Bellamy actually
[00:17:55] because they have to have an expertise
[00:17:57] you can't have just anybody presenting anymore
[00:17:59] unless it's an entertainment show
[00:18:01] BBC4 championed that for a while
[00:18:03] but even BBC4's struggling now isn't it
[00:18:05] I mean they were some of my favourite jobs I've ever done
[00:18:07] where BBC4 presenter led hours
[00:18:09] with a miniscule budget
[00:18:11] but with a licence to go on a fun adventure
[00:18:13] and tell a story
[00:18:15] so a huge creative budget
[00:18:17] and you've got to be creative
[00:18:19] and you think differently
[00:18:21] and film interesting visuals that aren't obvious
[00:18:23] that's what the Bellamy show is all about as well
[00:18:25] sort of finding those interesting visuals
[00:18:27] in the macro
[00:18:29] and just a different view on the world
[00:18:31] I love the macro and the micro photography
[00:18:33] that they showed
[00:18:35] I love just being able to watch it play out
[00:18:37] because it's just fascinating
[00:18:39] you're just like the Victorians
[00:18:41] love looking through their microscopes
[00:18:43] Bellamy love looking through his dads
[00:18:45] my daughters grandma brought her yesterday
[00:18:47] a little bug collecting kit
[00:18:49] and the rest of yesterday afternoon
[00:18:51] looking at everything through a magnifying glass
[00:18:53] rice krispies, hues, hair
[00:18:56] you name it
[00:18:58] but and the reason I bring that up
[00:19:00] is that it's endlessly fascinating
[00:19:02] and she's being raised in a world of iPads
[00:19:04] and YouTube and TikTok and all that kind of stuff
[00:19:06] but put a magnifying glass in your hand
[00:19:08] or a microscope
[00:19:10] and you're going to see amazing things
[00:19:12] that are inspirational
[00:19:14] and mind-boggling
[00:19:16] that says to me that you are a good parent
[00:19:17] ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha
[00:19:19] take for a mix
[00:19:21] with your company owner
[00:19:23] production company
[00:19:25] exec producer hat on
[00:19:27] how would you approach that kind of show
[00:19:29] today what would it look like
[00:19:31] Disney have just done it
[00:19:33] I think the real bugs life is it
[00:19:35] and what I love about that series is the
[00:19:37] it's drama and natural history together
[00:19:39] you can't ever obviously
[00:19:41] follow a single bug in its life
[00:19:43] throughout its life
[00:19:45] but actually what that series does
[00:19:47] that's more what I like
[00:19:49] rather than the
[00:19:51] fully animated, dramatized script version
[00:19:53] you know one that actually is rooted in
[00:19:55] what really happens
[00:19:57] I mean I was lucky enough to make a couple of shows
[00:19:59] that dealt in the macro world
[00:20:01] so Kingdom of Plants
[00:20:03] we filmed some bugs but we got down to that level
[00:20:05] and it was also the magical world of
[00:20:07] seeing behind the plant time scale
[00:20:09] when you speed the world up
[00:20:11] so you can see how plants actually live their lives
[00:20:13] and sort of start to see their behaviour
[00:20:15] a similar sort of thing
[00:20:17] and that is again I think inspired by that
[00:20:20] initial experience of seeing the macro world
[00:20:22] on television
[00:20:24] you have a chance to play with that idea yourself
[00:20:26] and real sort of privilege to do that
[00:20:28] it's macro is one area of the industry
[00:20:30] that I think that advances in technology
[00:20:32] are really what's opened up
[00:20:34] the ability to kind of make these amazing films
[00:20:36] this film that we watched is 40 years old
[00:20:38] but you couldn't have made a Kingdom of Plants
[00:20:40] or a real bugs life in the early 80s
[00:20:43] and I think we're lucky
[00:20:45] despite obviously the state of the industry
[00:20:47] we're going to be able to use the technology
[00:20:49] and the technology that we use to detect
[00:20:51] now that we can use to kind of unlock that world
[00:20:53] and I think in terms of where it's going
[00:20:55] I think you know this sort of explosion
[00:20:57] of immersive experiences
[00:20:59] where you go into a room and there's screens
[00:21:01] all around you or using VR headsets
[00:21:03] or AR to take an audience into that world
[00:21:05] in an immersive way
[00:21:07] I think would be even more incredible
[00:21:09] and actually bring some haptics into that
[00:21:11] so you can actually maybe touch something
[00:21:13] that feels like an earthworm
[00:21:15] while you're looking at a virtual earthworm
[00:21:17] and the impression of this series
[00:21:19] is in a huge immersive space
[00:21:21] like Lightroom at King's Cross
[00:21:23] we, the punters are the ones that are shrunk down
[00:21:25] and we walk into that giant world
[00:21:27] that's quite exciting isn't it?
[00:21:29] Yeah I think it would be brilliant
[00:21:31] it will just give you a chance to feel
[00:21:33] what it's like to be chased by a spider
[00:21:35] that's the size of a bus
[00:21:37] if you think about all of the experiences
[00:21:39] of being shrunk down
[00:21:41] so the visuals you can inject perfumes
[00:21:43] into the room so that it smells a certain way
[00:21:45] interactive touch modules
[00:21:47] and sound now
[00:21:49] the technology that we've got now
[00:21:51] with these immersive spaces
[00:21:53] the projection quality is so good
[00:21:55] these LED walls are really crisp
[00:21:57] and really clean
[00:21:59] but then also these very localised sound showers
[00:22:01] so you can be standing in a particular place
[00:22:03] and the sound is very different
[00:22:05] from standing a metre away
[00:22:07] so you can actually really localise the sound
[00:22:09] and put the viewer into that space
[00:22:11] in a really effective way
[00:22:13] Amazing, I mean sign me up
[00:22:15] I'll buy my tickets today
[00:22:17] I want to highlight that making films
[00:22:19] about the natural world is inevitably expensive though isn't it?
[00:22:22] That's the barrier isn't it?
[00:22:24] We talk about all this amazing tech
[00:22:26] and all these opportunities
[00:22:28] but it's expensive filmmaking
[00:22:30] Yeah it is expensive
[00:22:32] I think adding a presenter makes it cheaper
[00:22:34] but yeah it has to be it's expensive
[00:22:36] I think it's hard to
[00:22:38] it's hard to make these shows without spending
[00:22:40] a bit of time and budget on making it look good
[00:22:42] and waiting for the animals to behave
[00:22:44] in the way you need them to behave
[00:22:45] and we're always trying to find ways around
[00:22:47] that reality of just spending time in the field
[00:22:49] but it's hard
[00:22:51] but the macro world is a bit more controllable
[00:22:53] than going out necessarily into the
[00:22:55] Serengeti or something and waiting for
[00:22:57] a panther of lions to hunt
[00:22:59] Yeah we can do quite a lot in the studio space
[00:23:02] which is still expensive comparatively speaking
[00:23:05] but at least you've got a bit of control
[00:23:07] I mean we made quite pragmatic decisions
[00:23:09] on gladiators didn't we
[00:23:11] and that was partly to do with what can we control
[00:23:12] Shall we try and introduce a macro scene
[00:23:15] in every film of the series
[00:23:17] to at least give us an element of predictability
[00:23:20] So tell us about that series for people who don't know about it
[00:23:23] Gladiators is a series that we've made
[00:23:25] where Alex was our showrunner on the series
[00:23:27] we made it to El Smith
[00:23:29] we've got the greatest rivalries in the animal kingdom
[00:23:31] made for love nature and for sky
[00:23:33] it's going to be on sky in December I believe
[00:23:35] it's already airing on love nature
[00:23:37] but it's a series about those incredible battles
[00:23:39] between species and within species as well
[00:23:42] we had a scene with a lion pride
[00:23:45] attacking some elephants and preying on termites
[00:23:48] and so there's an array of animals
[00:23:50] that are naturally engaged in disputes
[00:23:53] and it's often over a resource like a water hole or something
[00:23:56] the animals come in and they're concentrated in there
[00:23:59] and then these sort of rivalries
[00:24:01] and these conflicts develop
[00:24:03] and so to make that series within a year
[00:24:06] which is any sane natural history filmmaker
[00:24:09] would tell you that isn't possible
[00:24:10] because you need for complex behaviors like that
[00:24:13] you go and film it once and then inevitably you miss stuff
[00:24:16] and so you go back again the next year
[00:24:18] the next season when it happens again
[00:24:20] and you shoot it again and sometimes even a third season
[00:24:22] to really fill in the gaps
[00:24:24] and by then you've been able to tell the story
[00:24:26] and capture the baby
[00:24:28] so we didn't have that luxury
[00:24:30] we knew we had to do this within a year
[00:24:32] which made choosing the stories
[00:24:34] it was a kind of very complex Venn diagram
[00:24:36] of what's a cool story
[00:24:38] when can we film it
[00:24:40] and how do we afford to film it and will it happen?
[00:24:42] with also that backdrop of knowing that every story
[00:24:44] was a one-shot deal
[00:24:46] once we were committed to it
[00:24:48] we would go and we would do it
[00:24:50] and it would either happen or it wouldn't
[00:24:52] so it became quite a delicate balancing act of
[00:24:54] you know you want the big, mighty giants
[00:24:56] of the savannah
[00:24:58] or whatever your equivalent environment is
[00:25:00] but you know that they're the ones
[00:25:02] that you have absolutely no ability to control
[00:25:04] you are as a film crew
[00:25:06] you're an entirely passive observer
[00:25:08] at the mercy of the weather
[00:25:10] and the lack of myriad conditions
[00:25:12] so part of the challenge was trying to then find stuff
[00:25:15] that we could have a bit more control over
[00:25:17] whilst also retaining scientific accuracy
[00:25:20] and all of that side of it as well
[00:25:22] you know what you can't do is create scenarios
[00:25:24] so we were always trying to create
[00:25:26] the right conditions for behaviour to happen
[00:25:29] but for behaviour to happen naturally
[00:25:31] so that's how we ended up with a mixture of the very big
[00:25:33] and the very small and everything in between
[00:25:35] and actually I think that's one thing that's really nice about it
[00:25:37] is that huge variation in scale
[00:25:38] yeah definitely there's an element of bellamy in that
[00:25:41] you know it's like being able to see these battles playing out
[00:25:44] we think of the big animals in conflict
[00:25:46] but you know they go on a microscopic level
[00:25:48] and actually they're kind of vicious aren't they
[00:25:51] we had a bullet ant which is a very fierce predator
[00:25:54] at the microscopic level in Australia
[00:25:56] wanders into Redback's web
[00:25:58] and so you've got these two fierce carnivores
[00:26:01] trying to eat each other effectively
[00:26:03] and you know the redback is casting at silk
[00:26:05] the bullet ant is trying to bite or sting the spider
[00:26:09] and it's dark it's kind of hobbit-esque in the way
[00:26:12] it's well partly in the way Alex made it all happen
[00:26:14] it looks like that you know it's beautifully done
[00:26:16] but it's quite brutal and it's quite thrilling
[00:26:18] and when you're on their level
[00:26:20] that's the joy of the macro photography
[00:26:22] when you're on their level you are in there
[00:26:24] you are in that story aren't you
[00:26:26] totally yeah can't see that in any other way
[00:26:28] so it's cool
[00:26:30] and it's always fun temporarily breaking the spell
[00:26:32] and cutting to a wide shot that reveals that this entire
[00:26:33] arena of battle is just a tiny little rotten log
[00:26:36] in a little corner of a forest somewhere
[00:26:38] but that's amazing because like this is happening everywhere
[00:26:41] like it's again back to that Bellamy
[00:26:43] and you pick up a stone what do you find
[00:26:45] you find something that has a life
[00:26:47] it's just trying to live and it's a dog eat dog world out there
[00:26:50] you know or a spider eat ant world out there
[00:26:52] I don't know how it ended up
[00:26:54] who won the battle
[00:26:56] the spider won
[00:26:58] is that surprising I don't know
[00:27:00] this is another element of another challenge of wildlife
[00:27:01] storytelling isn't it
[00:27:03] is that quite often the outcome often is very obvious
[00:27:05] and very predictable
[00:27:07] part of the trick is telling the story in a way
[00:27:09] that leads you down the garden path somewhat
[00:27:11] down Bellamy's garden path or any garden path
[00:27:13] we've talked about presenters
[00:27:15] and we've talked about what presenters give
[00:27:18] to viewers and audiences at home
[00:27:21] some of my favourite stuff has been
[00:27:23] working with presenters
[00:27:25] and I think part of it
[00:27:27] is as simple as having another member of the team
[00:27:29] who has a passion for a particular thing
[00:27:32] that is somebody to bounce off
[00:27:34] someone to generate ideas
[00:27:36] someone to parry with
[00:27:38] as part of the filmmaking process
[00:27:40] it's a shortcut to doing the research properly
[00:27:43] that's another way of describing it
[00:27:45] I think you're absolutely right
[00:27:47] Chris Packham's like that
[00:27:49] he just knows everything about everything
[00:27:51] he's such an intelligent guy
[00:27:53] and knows what's exciting and interesting
[00:27:55] to talk about as well
[00:27:57] so when you're directing a presenter like that
[00:27:59] you know what you think the story is going to be
[00:28:01] but then the presenter can sort of find something
[00:28:03] and turn it into something else
[00:28:05] that then you know it's proper documentary
[00:28:07] you can go down a slightly different path
[00:28:09] in your story based on the knowledge
[00:28:11] that they brought with them
[00:28:13] and the excitement they brought with them
[00:28:15] and you can do stuff to them as well
[00:28:17] you can make them wade through the water
[00:28:19] or wrestle the crocodile
[00:28:21] or whatever it may be to add a bit of excitement and drama
[00:28:23] and from a kind of practical perspective as well
[00:28:25] they're a fantastic get out of jail card
[00:28:27] you know you can feel
[00:28:29] you're in the edit and
[00:28:31] you need something exciting
[00:28:33] you need to tell a complex story
[00:28:35] you presenter can tell that story
[00:28:37] they can share that fact
[00:28:39] and it just adds something
[00:28:41] it can be a very efficient way of making films can't it
[00:28:43] a really solid 45 second piece to camera
[00:28:45] is 45 seconds of your film done
[00:28:48] in the can ready to go
[00:28:50] it doesn't mean it has to be
[00:28:52] boringly shot either though
[00:28:54] I mean it's like there are lots of really cool ways
[00:28:56] of shooting presenters so that they feel embedded
[00:28:57] in a really kind of visual way
[00:28:59] but also a great presenter you want to watch
[00:29:01] you want to see what they're going to say
[00:29:03] and what they think and they're charismatic
[00:29:05] and they draw you into the film
[00:29:07] and into the story and into their way of seeing something
[00:29:09] so a great presenter is just
[00:29:11] it feels easy to make a film
[00:29:13] with a great presenter doesn't it
[00:29:15] yeah if they're a good presenter
[00:29:17] they're inevitably a good storytellers themselves
[00:29:19] and they if you feel like they're your friend
[00:29:22] when they're telling you something
[00:29:24] then that can really help as well
[00:29:26] it's like being told a kind of cool story by
[00:29:27] a mate it can be as simple as that
[00:29:29] do we know or have any sense of how involved
[00:29:32] David Bellamy was in the creative process
[00:29:35] and the creative side of actually making these
[00:29:37] that is a really great question
[00:29:39] I didn't really find anything
[00:29:41] I mean when I was looking at this
[00:29:43] I was looking at the visual effects
[00:29:45] and electronic effects was kind of really
[00:29:48] interesting looking into that
[00:29:50] and a lot of the people who worked on
[00:29:52] Doctor Who also worked on this
[00:29:54] the other David, David Attenborough
[00:29:55] you know he tells very interesting tales
[00:29:58] about making television in those days
[00:30:00] David Attenborough would
[00:30:02] he was in a place where he could just go to his boss
[00:30:04] and say I should like to make a documentary series
[00:30:07] about Indonesia
[00:30:09] oh wonderful David that sounds fantastic
[00:30:11] how long are you going for and how much money do you need
[00:30:13] you know there was trust
[00:30:15] the filmmakers and the presenters were empowered
[00:30:17] it was understood that they had the knowledge
[00:30:19] and the expertise
[00:30:21] and that they would come back with the goods
[00:30:23] and off they'd go
[00:30:25] and they would attenborough
[00:30:27] a lot of it was done in the moment
[00:30:29] they would find cool things
[00:30:31] I mean obviously there's a certain amount of planning done
[00:30:33] but he would script as he goes
[00:30:35] and they would work it out as they go
[00:30:37] so the NHU made this
[00:30:39] and they say with David Attenborough
[00:30:41] and ZooQuest
[00:30:43] they have a long history of making
[00:30:45] natural history programs for kids
[00:30:47] it was really important for them
[00:30:49] they saw it was part of their mission
[00:30:51] we still have some natural history programming
[00:30:53] for kids today
[00:30:55] and they've got the deadly and things like that
[00:30:57] so you've still got that element of the deadly
[00:30:59] but it's not city and fun
[00:31:01] and crazy like this is
[00:31:03] I don't see anything like this for kids today
[00:31:05] well actually and that's where
[00:31:07] funnily enough a real bugs life does come in
[00:31:09] because I think that is a rare example of something
[00:31:11] that had a big budget
[00:31:13] was squarely natural history
[00:31:15] but also had a remit
[00:31:17] to appeal to all ages
[00:31:19] and in storytelling terms very much did
[00:31:21] but I think you're right
[00:31:23] I think it's unusual certainly nowadays
[00:31:25] I don't really wonder what our kids
[00:31:27] will be watching in ten years time
[00:31:29] of this sort of in this genre
[00:31:31] when we made in 2013
[00:31:33] I think it was we made
[00:31:35] the burrowers with Chris Packham
[00:31:37] you know it's another kind of attempt
[00:31:39] to get inside an invisible world
[00:31:41] in the same vein as by Keltafari I'd say
[00:31:43] where the conceit was
[00:31:45] let's cut a hillside in half
[00:31:47] and see how burrowing animals are living
[00:31:49] which I thought was a really cool
[00:31:51] concept from the beginning
[00:31:53] and that was you know this was BBC2
[00:31:55] they're going to appeal to the whole family
[00:31:57] because it was sort of you know
[00:31:59] there's elements of watershed down in there
[00:32:01] and the animals involved burrowing animals
[00:32:03] are kind of cute aren't they so they're going to appeal
[00:32:05] I think that's where the BBC does things really well
[00:32:07] we made the burrowers not on a massive budget
[00:32:09] for natural history it was you know
[00:32:11] it was a challenge in the end
[00:32:13] we had to kind of construct this underground
[00:32:15] burrow for the rabbits
[00:32:17] and there are lots of rules about you know
[00:32:19] the husbandry and so on and look at the rabbits behaviour
[00:32:21] but also badges and other burrowing animals as well
[00:32:23] it was a cool project to make
[00:32:25] it light the underground world
[00:32:27] and make it feel kind of moody and mysterious
[00:32:29] and it took influences from the world of fiction as well
[00:32:32] so you get on a hobbit hole into the burrow and so on
[00:32:35] so that ability to inject a bit of silliness
[00:32:38] a bit of fantasy into it was there
[00:32:40] and ever since we made that
[00:32:42] you know there's been a desire to make it again
[00:32:44] but we've never managed to find the right idea
[00:32:46] the right animals
[00:32:48] the burrowers was a real challenge to make
[00:32:50] for all sorts of reasons
[00:32:52] you know you get into TV thinking
[00:32:53] about the animals
[00:32:55] but you know it was an all hands on deck production
[00:32:57] right down to you know I remember arriving
[00:32:59] on set in the morning
[00:33:01] and the first task every morning
[00:33:03] because the rabbits would mark their territory
[00:33:05] by wewing everywhere
[00:33:07] we had these sort of glass screens
[00:33:09] that we're filming through
[00:33:11] and we had to design the whole thing ourselves
[00:33:13] you know it was like we went to zoo architects
[00:33:15] and it was all too expensive
[00:33:17] we had expertise in what we were doing
[00:33:19] but the manual, a lot of the manual stuff
[00:33:21] as production staff we had to ourselves
[00:33:23] and pull back these glass screens
[00:33:25] while the rabbits were in there
[00:33:27] try and clean all the piss off
[00:33:29] it was disgusting, it really stank
[00:33:31] every morning we'd do that
[00:33:33] as the showrunner job guys
[00:33:35] I know
[00:33:37] it wasn't just me
[00:33:39] we were all having to do it
[00:33:41] everybody had to pull their weight
[00:33:43] and you realise that you've designed it slightly wrong
[00:33:45] but the point I wanted to make about the burrowers
[00:33:47] was it was a natural history
[00:33:49] but we got to play with some of the literary references
[00:33:51] and the kind of idea
[00:33:53] that we were not actually working
[00:33:55] but we were working on a lot of the
[00:33:57] kind of cultural history
[00:33:59] but framed in this fun family way
[00:34:01] right down to the way that Chris the presenter
[00:34:03] would enter this underground world
[00:34:05] through this path
[00:34:07] through vegetation
[00:34:09] through a big round door
[00:34:11] like a sort of hobbit door
[00:34:13] so we played it for factual theatre
[00:34:15] which is what it was
[00:34:17] and ever since then
[00:34:19] we've repitched the burrowers
[00:34:21] with different animals
[00:34:23] and a bit just didn't quite have that magic
[00:34:25] finding that other secret world
[00:34:27] is the next challenge I think
[00:34:29] so what are your other than having to
[00:34:31] as a showrunner clean off rabbits
[00:34:33] pee every morning
[00:34:35] what are the other kind of great stories
[00:34:37] from the amazing people
[00:34:39] you've worked with the amazing places you've been
[00:34:41] well the first time I directed
[00:34:44] Sir David Ambrer
[00:34:46] was obviously a pretty momentous occasion
[00:34:48] I think if David Bellamy was still working
[00:34:50] I'm sure we would hold him in the same
[00:34:51] and he hadn't had this political thing
[00:34:53] I think he would be as loved as David Ambrer
[00:34:56] because I think the magic of David Ambrer
[00:34:58] is that he's everybody alive today
[00:35:00] certainly in the UK
[00:35:02] and around the world
[00:35:04] has seen him on television since they were kids
[00:35:06] and so he has this fatherly
[00:35:08] or grandfatherly charm about him
[00:35:10] that we all just want to hear from him
[00:35:12] and we all believe him and trust him
[00:35:14] so like any good natural history filmmaker
[00:35:16] I was pretty nervous about working with him
[00:35:18] when I got the job
[00:35:19] and I was able to get commissioned
[00:35:21] and one of the things that we were going to do
[00:35:23] was film fossils at the Burgess Shale
[00:35:25] in Canada
[00:35:27] and the Burgess Shale is way up in a mountainside
[00:35:29] and it's only exposed
[00:35:31] for about three months of the year
[00:35:33] the rest of the year it's covered in ice and snow
[00:35:35] so you've got to get there
[00:35:37] in that window
[00:35:39] so the thing, the series got commissioned
[00:35:41] this was first life for the BBC
[00:35:43] got commissioned and immediately it's like
[00:35:45] well we've got to get out there
[00:35:47] in like three weeks or something
[00:35:49] and this whole scene
[00:35:51] work out the whole series
[00:35:53] and work out how this scene fits in
[00:35:55] and so we were kind of planning this shoot
[00:35:58] you know all the stresses of setting a shoot up quickly
[00:36:00] and we decided we're going to do the Burgess Shale
[00:36:02] and another location called Mistaken Point
[00:36:04] which has the earliest animal fossils on earth
[00:36:07] it's on a coastline
[00:36:09] it's very windswept in Newfoundland actually
[00:36:11] so there's, it's very foggy
[00:36:13] and so we went to do the recce
[00:36:15] we did lots of recceing to try and figure out
[00:36:17] how are we going to get this octogenarian
[00:36:19] base
[00:36:21] very worried about making him walk too far
[00:36:23] was he, I think his knees were
[00:36:25] we're giving up on him at the time
[00:36:27] since I had them replaced
[00:36:29] we knew he couldn't make him walk very far
[00:36:31] we didn't want to tire him out
[00:36:33] everything in our planning was
[00:36:35] you know we were thinking about the strategy
[00:36:37] for keeping David moving
[00:36:39] you know feed him chocolate
[00:36:41] feed him magnum ice creams
[00:36:43] you know let's keep him going
[00:36:45] give him the sugar
[00:36:47] this one location at Mistaken Point
[00:36:49] unfortunately the guide wasn't able to come back with us
[00:36:52] on the day of filming
[00:36:54] so he showed us the path
[00:36:56] and said make sure you go down here
[00:36:58] park the car here, walk down there
[00:37:00] and it's down this path
[00:37:02] and of course the day that David arrived
[00:37:04] there was some kind of transport issue
[00:37:06] he was a bit late turning up
[00:37:08] we had less than an hour of light left
[00:37:10] it was our only chance to get down
[00:37:12] he only needs a piece to camera about these fossils
[00:37:14] that's all we needed from him
[00:37:16] and I'd kind of scripted it
[00:37:17] and the crew they would go down ahead
[00:37:19] get set up and then I'd go and collect
[00:37:21] David from the car
[00:37:23] so everyone had their role
[00:37:25] we knew what we had to do
[00:37:27] and eventually David turned up
[00:37:29] and of course you got the intros
[00:37:31] I mean I met him in pre-production meetings
[00:37:33] but this was the first time on location
[00:37:35] and the crew went down
[00:37:37] and I was walking with David
[00:37:39] and Anthony Geffen who is the executive producer
[00:37:41] at the time
[00:37:43] and we were walking along this coastal path
[00:37:45] to get there
[00:37:47] and so my head was spinning in all sorts of different directions
[00:37:50] I was worrying about the lights
[00:37:52] we'd been walking for about 15-20 minutes
[00:37:54] and Anthony just said to me
[00:37:56] Martin I thought you said it was only a 10 minute walk
[00:37:58] we'd been walking for 20 minutes
[00:38:00] and I looked at the path
[00:38:02] and it looked the same that way as that way
[00:38:04] and I thought oh shit I've missed the turning down
[00:38:06] because the whole coastline
[00:38:08] it all looked the same
[00:38:10] there were lots of paths going down
[00:38:12] and I thought oh my god
[00:38:14] and then sort of David came up behind us
[00:38:15] and Anthony just said oh yes that's alright David
[00:38:18] just a change of plan
[00:38:20] we're going to go to a different location
[00:38:22] and David just knew straight away
[00:38:24] that was not the truth
[00:38:26] because he said well why didn't we do the crew
[00:38:28] walking past us then
[00:38:30] I just wanted the floor to open
[00:38:32] the whole thing was hideous
[00:38:34] and I was thinking it was going to be too dark
[00:38:36] anyway we went back down
[00:38:38] eventually we found the path down
[00:38:40] I gave David the crew there
[00:38:42] and it was this incredible scene actually
[00:38:43] because it was a windswept coastline
[00:38:45] we're talking about the dawn of life on earth effectively
[00:38:47] the dawn of animal life on earth
[00:38:49] and I gave David this piece to read
[00:38:51] and he read it through a couple of times
[00:38:53] he knew the pressure was on
[00:38:55] and stood him in position
[00:38:57] and he sort of he was wearing that blue coat
[00:38:59] he wears it sort of done up like this
[00:39:01] and the wind was blowing in his hair
[00:39:03] was looking a bit windswept
[00:39:05] but in the kind of classic Attenborough style
[00:39:07] and then just as he was about to start
[00:39:09] the sun went just below the cloud layer
[00:39:11] so there was these shafts of light coming out
[00:39:13] and then there were grey clouds in the sky
[00:39:15] the ocean was quite rough and rugged
[00:39:17] it looked like we were standing on earth
[00:39:19] at the very beginning
[00:39:21] and he just did this incredible piece to count really
[00:39:23] for some three billion years
[00:39:26] simple microscopic organisms
[00:39:28] were the most advanced form of life
[00:39:30] on the planet
[00:39:32] that's way over half the entire history
[00:39:34] of life on earth
[00:39:37] and then suddenly
[00:39:39] within the space of a few million years
[00:39:40] a mere blink of the eye in evolutionary terms
[00:39:43] advanced organisms appeared
[00:39:46] why?
[00:39:48] is a mystery
[00:39:50] but we may find some clues to it
[00:39:52] on the coastline down here
[00:39:54] and he just nailed it in one take
[00:39:56] it's the secret source that a great presenter has
[00:39:58] they add that magic to words on paper
[00:40:00] it can look quite banal
[00:40:02] but he looked the part, he sounded the part
[00:40:04] and it was such a relief
[00:40:06] that everybody just burst out laughing
[00:40:08] it was the best moment of my career actually
[00:40:10] it was so hard
[00:40:12] that's David Attenborough reading these words that I've written
[00:40:14] I could not believe it
[00:40:16] I mean awe just listening to that
[00:40:18] the best part was he could see him looking around
[00:40:20] and you could see him just nodding
[00:40:22] I got it, I still got it
[00:40:24] that is such a brilliant story to end on
[00:40:26] what do you think?
[00:40:28] I've got one more question really
[00:40:30] which is the question that we're going to ask everyone really
[00:40:32] what's for lunch?
[00:40:34] you brought this brilliant thing in for us to watch
[00:40:36] you've had the chance to watch it again
[00:40:38] I'm guessing for the first time in quite a long time
[00:40:40] what it means to you?
[00:40:42] I'm kind of really grateful to David Bellamy
[00:40:44] and David Attenborough
[00:40:46] and that whole school of filmmakers
[00:40:49] for having the kind of innovative ideas
[00:40:52] to make shows like that
[00:40:54] and that kind of raw passion
[00:40:56] the fact that these were people who
[00:40:58] the on-screen people
[00:41:00] David Bellamy, David Attenborough
[00:41:02] they're people who passionately believed
[00:41:04] in what they were doing
[00:41:06] there was no other agenda than just
[00:41:08] telling a really cool story
[00:41:10] that I found really exciting
[00:41:12] and you can't help but be inspired
[00:41:15] and engage when you watch those shows
[00:41:17] actually, I look at David Bellamy's
[00:41:19] Backyard Safari show
[00:41:21] and I think that visually
[00:41:23] it was incredibly inspiring and innovative as well
[00:41:25] just to have the idea
[00:41:27] but then execute it in a way that he did
[00:41:29] clearly there's things that
[00:41:31] have not stood the test of time as well
[00:41:33] but as a show I think it's magical
[00:41:35] I love the fact that we're still trying
[00:41:37] to make shows like that today
[00:41:38] and we're just trying to bring it in
[00:41:40] thank you so much
[00:41:42] it's been wonderful
[00:41:44] let's have some lunch then shall we
[00:41:46] yes!
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